Fraudulent Use of PE Stamp! 7

[tuggertoo]

My husband is a civil/mechanical P.E. Last week a developer in a nearby city called to question some HVAC plans bearing my husband's stamp. The project was unfamiliar to him. After listening to a general description by the developer, it became apparent that "someone" cut my husband's stamp off a set of plans, glued onto their own drawing, made copies and submitted to the City for approval. The developer is angry because the design is flawed and failing (imagine that). The guy overnighted the drawing to our office-low and behold-it was forged.

The perpetrator filled in areas of the signature that extended beyond the actual area of the seal and dated the document. The forged stamp also included an added exterior circle in order to disguise the area where the stamp was cut from another set of plans.

Has anyone else ever been through this experience? What kind of action did you take? We have notified the NM Board of P.E.'s and have found the contractor that provided the plans. They provided the name of a gentleman that supposedly works for our firm (we've never heard of the guy) who hand delivered the plans to their office.

The contractor's attorney contacted us today stating that she would advise her client to cooperate with us and answer our questions (such as the phone number & address of the guy that represented our firm and handed over the actual drawing to their office) ONLY if we agreed not to press criminal charges. Interpretation: Her client is guilty-he wanted to collect his contractor's fee and the fee paid for the services of a consulting engineer.

 

[MedicineEng]

I would go with Kenat. There are things in the law of all countries that can make a inocent look guilty and a guilty inocent. As I say, the problem is that hte law is made by lawyers and sometimes it seems that they make it purposedly dubious to have litigation (and thus $$$ in their pockets). So, even the filling of a police report, what to say, how to say it is important to be guided by a professional. Remember that there are lawyers out there that can pick a word on your statement and overturn all the meaning that you originaly wanted it to have.

Since most probably this will have implications, I would protect myself. I don't think that you just can hand this to your state's ruling body and wash your hands. Expect some backlash to you.

 

[JAE]

BJC,

I didn't say it negated the crime. Where did you get that idea?


Here are some excerpts from the Texas engineering laws:

§ 1001.552. Criminal Penalty
(a) A person commits an offense if the person:
...
(3) presents or attempts to use as the person’s own the license or seal of another
...
(b) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.

§ 1001.554. Presentation of Complaints by Board; Assistance at Trial
(a) A member of the Board may present to a prosecuting officer a complaint relating to a violation of this chapter.

§139.1 General
The Board will conduct inquiries into situations which allegedly violate the requirements of the Texas Engineering Practice Act (Act) …

SUBCHAPTER B: COMPLAINT PROCESS AND PROCEDURES
§139.11 Complaints - General
(a) The Board shall initiate or receive and investigate a complaint against a license holder or other person who may have violated the Act or Board rules.

§139.17 Investigating a Complaint
(a) The Board staff shall be responsible for investigating the complaint including determining the need for and obtaining any additional evidence that may be required to proceed with disciplinary action.

§139.19 Final Resolution of Complaint
(a) Upon the completion of an investigation, the Board staff shall present to the executive director a report of investigation and recommendation of final resolution of the complaint. If sufficient evidence and documentation exists to substantiate one or more violations of the Act or Board rules has occurred, the Board shall proceed as prescribed in §139.31 of this chapter (relating to Enforcement Actions for Violations of the Act). These actions may include, but are not limited to, one or more of the following:
(1) enter into an agreement of voluntary compliance;
(2) agree to informal consent order or agreed Board order with administrative penalty and compliance requirement;
(3) referral of injunctive or criminal actions to the proper authorities;
(4) referral of a final order to the State Office of Administrative Hearings; or
(5) other action as provided by law.[/u][/b]

So the process is:

1. Engineer discovers a possible violation of the engineering laws of their state

2. Engineer notifies the Board of Engineers of the violation.

3. The Board then takes action per their laws and rules (as in the Texas example above)

4. After researching the claim, the Board may handle the case with license suspensions, etc. OR forward the case to the state for prosecution.

[red]Nowhere do we as engineers get lawyers and sue other engineers for their violations of the state engineering laws.[/red] That's my whole point.

 

[BJC]

"Nowhere do we as engineers get lawyers and sue other engineers for their violations of the state engineering laws."
True- but fraud and conspiracy is covered in criminal statues. If you run over someone in your car the DMV will take your drivers license and may fine you under an adminstrative power. The DA may put you in the slammer for manslaughter.
The family of the person you ran over may bring a civil action against you.

 

[RDK]

Almost the identical situation happened in Manitoba a number of years ago. (It was even regarding mechanical plans.) Under our system the engineering associations are responsible for enforcing engineering laws and the Crown attorneys are responsible for enforcing fraud and other civil laws.

The case bounced between the association and the Crown for a long time because the Crown insisted that it was a case of engineering practice and hence the Associations mandate and the association claimed that it was fraud and the Crown’s responsibility.

The case was in limbo for so long that by the time the Crown accepted responsibility for the case the guilty party was nowhere to be found and the case was dropped.



Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[KENAT]

BJC, it's nice to see someone that still has faith in law enforcement. My experience tells me otherwise, my course unless I need immediate assistance would probably be to get legal advice before approaching the authorities.

Sure it may make the Police think you have something to hide but they'll probably think that anyway, at least with a lawyer you have someone on your side who understands the system better.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[BJC]

KENAT
I would assume Tuggertoo has a lawyer. Most people would on a business that size.
The situation she described could do a lot of dammage. It's the same as someone breaking in and throwing gasoline all over, or stealing her idenity and withdrawing all the companies cash.
I know people don't like lawyers but they can help and hurt. What if the project get's built with a fradulent stamp? The building catches fire or falls down, Tuggertoo will probably get sued. Right or wrong, win or loose, she spend a lot of money and time. Her lawyer can help or now or the other peoples lawyer will try to hurt her later.

 

[JAE]

BJC - I still get the impression you think I think that there is no crime here involved. I AGREE with you that there is a crime here. I agree that charges should be filed. I agree that criminal activity is involved.

What I don't agree with is that the engineer whose seal was used should get a lawyer and file charges. It's the Board of Engineers in the state that should be taking this sort of action.

 

[Dinosaur]

I see several dimensions to this problem.

1) There is a procedural problem which the Board of Professional Regulation needs to address. This may fall under the umbrella of practicing engineering without a license or representing yourself as a licensed engineer, albeit fraudulently.

2) Fraud in representing something as work evaluated by an engineer that was not so evaluated.

3) Conspiracy in that I believe the contractor knows more than we have currently in evidence.

4) Identity theft in that this fellow is stealing your identity.

5) I believe there are damages for loss of billable work. This job, if requireing a PE, is liost work to whomever would have received the work. The most obvious claiment to this work would be the firm represented by the fraudulent drawings.

I believe I would contact the board about the issue to give them the original complaint. Then I would talk to a lawyer at church to see if I should contact the police or DA immediately or if I should retain counsel before contacting the police. I can tell you that unless my legal counsel said I would likely never collect the damages, I would go full on for all the charges I could. If the shoe were on the other foot, lawyers and doctors wouldn't stand for a second for any of this crap. Could you imagine the consequence of writing a letter and signing it as a lawyer, accepting payment, and then getting caught? How about writing a perscription, signing it as a doctor, and getting paid? As soon as you remember someone was paid for these sealed drawings, it takes on a new dimension.

 

[BJC]

JAE we don't disagree, I'm with you.
The engineer shouldn't file charges. He should file a police complaint for the record and notify the board.
He should go to his lawyer and say here's what happened and here is what I am doing.
The lawyer may say you have done the right thing or he may say something like "You also need to file a fraud complaint with the State Attorney General". It's uncharted territory for most people, so it's wise to get a little advise.

 

[Timelord]

tuggertoo,

I am a practicing engineer from Albuquerque and I sympathize with you. This is not only a crime against the people of New Mexico in general, but it is also a crime against your husband. His reputation is being degraded and you should sue when you uncover the rat responsible.
Unfortunately, you may have a lot of trouble getting the district attorney to prosecute the underlying fraud charge. We had a bookkeeper who imbezzled over $30,000 from our small firm a few years ago. The APD investigated (half-heartedly) and when they turned it over to the DA, he declined to prosecute because it was not a great deal of money and he had other priorities (according to him). It was a great deal of money to us, as it almost ruined us. Just another example of our good old boy government here in NM. Good luck.

Timelord

 

[KENAT]

BJC, I'm in no way saying don't report the crime. The Crime should be reported for all the reasons people give above.

I'm saying cover your a$$ by at least talking to your lawyer first. I doubt the lawyer will say don't report it but he may have some input on what to say/how to say it.

In this case the hours or at most day delay it should take to talk to a lawyer are not likely to cause much further damage.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[Ashereng]

If someone commits fraud, there is probably a basis for a legal suit. "Stealing" an engineering stamp and mis-representing that someone works for your firm when they don't should fall under fraud.

Reporting to the board is a separate action. You of course shoud report this to the board.

As far as I understand, the board does not deal with compensation, or civil or criminal actions - those rest with the courts and police.

So, I would suggest:
- get your lawyer involved,
- file with the police
- file with the board
- don't talk to the other party without your lawyer
- start legal actiona as soon as your lawyer suggest

Good luck.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[JStephen]

On a side note, I recall reading, I think in the Structural forum, that they were having enough problems with stuff like this in NY and elsewhere that the common practice was to use imprint seals on each copy rather than rubber stamp seals.

 

[woodengineer]

This guy needs to be prosecuted!!!

woodengineer

 

[tuggertoo]

A big thanks to each and every one of you that has taken the time to respond to my question. The board, as previously mentioned, has been advised and the attorney called.

Timelord-I wonder if we know each other??!! We are in ABQ too!

 

[msquared48]

In 27 years of practice, I have had this reported to me twice by local building officials. And that is twice that they know of. It happens far more often than you think.

In both instances, I reported the details to the State board and they "handled" the matter. Censures only which made me mad, but I did inform other engineers in the area I am familiar with, and who the individual will have to deal with in the future.

Makes you feel violated, like having a burgler in your home, but with increased liability.

I would check with a lawyer if you try to pursue any monetary compensation here. With compensation comes liability, and you mentioned that the system failed. I realize that this logic is a reach, but you cannot be too careful. Courts make wierd decisons.

It would be nice if these individuals, by law, would lose, permanently, any business license, bond, or other state licensure for such behavior. I guess that comes with complaints to the legislature, lots and lots of complaints. Just a thought.

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

 

[dfish67]

Wasn't the misrepresentation (fraud) committed against the developer? I think it would be the developer who would bring any civil action and/or file a criminal complaint against the perp. The PE holder has a stolen identity thing going on. The consulting company hmm...not sure if there is an action to take...unless the developer had a legit reason to believe the perp worked there (an agent). Then the consultants would be on the defensive.