Fuel Cells

[EEJaime]

Hello all,

Just an inquiry regarding the use of fuel cells in an interactive system as defined in the NEC. Has anyone had experience in the use of multiple unit parallel installation of fuel cells to provide on-site power production to reduce the utility demand? What are the advantages and disadvantages? In general was this a positive experience? A successful installation? Any major issues with the AHJ? We are looking into using these for a client whom has requested we investigate this technology and implement this if we deem it a viable option.

Has anyone studied this type of installation? Is there preference of one type over others? Do these systems provide any kind of return on investment that makes their use worthwile? Or is this still an emerging technology rendering any installations as merely demonstration projects?

Any input would be welcome. Thank you for your interest.

EEJaime
California, USA

 

[catserveng]

I don't all the details of the project, as we lost a bid to do a cogeneration plant that went to the multiple fuel cell project. Sheraton Hotels on Harbor Island in San Diego has a multiple fuel cell project, and it was pretty heavily exposed to trade groups and such. It has been in service for several years, so it may be a good place to gather some longer term field operating experience. Their facilities folks may be able to direct you to best source of info on that project.

Here is a link with some info,

http://www.clearedgepower.com/news/new-technology-may-help-lower-local-energy-bills

Hope that helps, Mike L.

 

[EEJaime]

catserveng,
Thank you for the lead and link. That is the type of information I am looking for. We are working in the San Diego area as well, so I will follow up on that. I appreciate the information.
Have a good day,
EEJaime

 

[living2learn]

I am fixing a fuel cell design in San Diego...LOL

What are the advantages and disadvantages?
On site power production is pretty cool especially if you have a parasitic load. Disadvantages are meeting IEEE 1547 and what do you do if there is no load...the fuel cell will take up to 8 hours to restart, so I recommend a load bank sized at 90% with step loading to keep that bad boy rocking. Also depending on who you work with at SDG&E meeting their requirements can be pretty fun with an existing site. Not hard if you buy the right toys...

In general was this a positive experience?
Sure it was a positive experience - what isn't positive these days? The person who installed it did not pay attention to the grounding configuration of the 12kV system .

A successful installation?
It worked...until utility went away and they also messed of the ground fault coordination for the entire campus.

Any major issues with the AHJ?
Nope. San Diego is super simple, SDG&E isn't bad at all either compared to other utilities. You can call them.

We are looking into using these for a client whom has requested we investigate this technology and implement this if we deem it a viable option.
Schnick?

 

[catserveng]

I work pretty regular at a large sewage treatment plant in San Diego, as part of a project to take excess digester gas, clean it, and send it to the utility, a fuel cell was installed. We had to work thru a number of issues. While the idea of another source on site sounded good, implementation sucked. We have two large medium speed engines on digester gas, a diesel standby, and a hydro-turbine on the sewage outfall line, all that can parallel to the utility service and export excess power. If the fuel cell had been installed and coordinated with the other generators on the site, we probably would have had way fewer problems. Instead it is installed out in the distribution and poorly interfaced. In the end our best solution was if we lose utility, we trip the feeder going out to where the fuel cell is and get it off line until utility returns. Not so good for the fuel cell, but the system is designed to island if we lose utility and stay on line, not so easy some days with a bio-fueled engine. Problem was when utility went away we got some pretty good initial voltage and frequency transients that normally we ride thru, but with the fuel cell on line it would try to hog both real and reactive power load, then go unstable, dumping the whole bus.

Frankly it was a stupid project overall, but a bunch of grant money to try and make "natural gas" at a time when NG prices are low and supplies pretty good, and no close in large user of gas made this seem not very smart. Had they taken just part of the money, cleaned up the gas better to the engines, added another engine with after-treatment, improved the utility service and wheeled the excess power to their other facilities, it would have been a much better solution. But it was "green" to install a fuel cell, one that barely covered the parasitic power requirements of the gas cleanup process. To way too many people, burning any kind of fuel in an engine, even fuel produced from sewage treatment, is BAD. so this project went forward.

I think fuel cells have a place in the overall power generation scheme, after the initial posting of this thread I got a chance to go over and talk with one the facilities engineers at the Sheraton, the fuel cells there seem to be well accepted and doing what was promised, provide electricity and hot water at an economical price with minimal problems.

But I've heard a number of horror stories from around the state, most involve what appeared to be a pretty good fuel cell design poorly interfaced into an existing system, sounds like living2learn found another. Too bad that some of these projects can't seem to get around poor integration.

My two cents worth, Mike L.

 

[waross]

Too many folks ready to start vast projects with half vast plans. grin.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

 

[catserveng]

Bill,

Couldn't agree more!

Mike L.