Fukushima No. 1 loss of coolant due to earthquake 7

[Zogzog]

Yes, 5kV. They were 750kW each, trailer mounted, 64,000 lbs for whole package. They are called "Field mobility packages" and are in use in Iraq and Afganastan. I think there was some flexibility on voltage and frequency output, but I do not know that for sure.

I get the feeling that the reason there is not any emergency power hooked up by now is Japan has not accepted the help? Matter of national pride maybe? I can't be the only guy with the means to do this sort of thing. The Ronald Regan is steaming off the coast and I would think they have the capabilities to do this sort of thing. Haliburton? FEMA? Someone?

 

[rasevskii]

for trottiey:

Sorry, I should not have said that. I was thinking only of the electrical side. Thanks for the link. I had not seen that before.

rasevskii

 

[trottiey]

It is difficult for me to imagine an evacuation zone of more than a few hundred metres for nuclear workers, and even then that could only be temporary while we draw up better plans and gather (or build) better equipment. We have the training and equipment to work safely with extraordinary radiation levels, and we have never encountered a hazard so great that we could not devise some way to work with it safely. Fukushima appears to be testing the limits, but your 250 km speculation is inconceivable to me.

And yes, bringing in helicopters to fight a fire was certainly envisioned long ago. They are frequently used in conventional fires, they were used in Chernobyl, and I myself had speculative conversations about them with some of my peers on the very day of the earthquake. I'm sure I wasn't alone, and the mission plans would have been drawn up long ago, just in case.

Communication needs to be better than this, it's true! I think most nuclear professionals understand the need for accuracy and completeness of information. That's why I'm here on this forum trying to help in my own way. But I also think some of the difficulties can be attributed to language barriers, journalistic errors, and outside factors related to the earthquake and tsunami.

 

[VEBill]

CBC News - "A new power line could soon restore electricity to cooling systems at Japan's tsunami-damaged nuclear plant, its operator said early Thursday..."

 

[ScottI2R]

CNN--(Contradictory News Network)

Am I reading this wrong, or is this yoyo saying that cesium and iodine do NOT harm the body?

[6:48 a.m. ET Wednesday, 7:48 p.m. in Tokyo] Tests revealed traces of radiation in tap water in Fukushima city, 80 kilometers (50 miles) from the Daiichi nuclear plant, the local government said Wednesday. The Fukushima prefecture's nuclear department said amounts of radioactive cesium and iodine that are not harmful to the human body were found in water samples taken at 8 a.m. Wednesday (7 p.m. ET Tuesday). Government officials said the traces found are connected with the nuclear plant. A measurement of the tap water supply taken later in the day found no traces of iodine or cesium.

Scott



I really am a good egg, I'm just a little scrambled!

 

[electricpete]

One way to parse the sentence would be that the phrase "that are not harmful" applies to "amounts", rather than "cesium and iodine"

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(2B)+(2B)' ?

 

[trottiey]

Either way, the Fukushima prefecture's statement about cesium and iodine, as reported above, is technically incorrect. No safe threshold has been scientifically established for the stochastic health effects of radiation. See thread466-294523 for a discussion of this.

 

[itsmoked]

trottiey:
Thanks for this link:

http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/

Very informative.

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[ScottI2R]

Very informative I agree. However, data for f-daiichi is inconclusive / insufficient. I speculate that no suppression pool temps are available is because they are dry? And by the way, are these pools pressurized as one would believe by the parameters listed on the NISA site? I realize instrumentation can fail during an "event", however, the other plant experienced the same event (minus the reactor troubles) and all the data is present and available on it's chart. Sorry to start sounding a little cynical here, but I don't think the people that NEED to know (IE. Bill Nye the Science Guy) are being kept in the loop. (That was sarcasm). It really doesn’t matter what I am told, although I would appreciate as I am sure we all would, a better, more technically accurate report of what the devil is going on over there. If the media cannot supply a knowledgeable person to report the situation in proper wording so those with no scientific background can understand, then they should shut their babbling pie holes. All they do is add hype and sensationalize a serious disaster / tragedy. Accountability for this can go all the way to the back burner for now. Solving and stopping the problem should be at the top of everyone’s list. To do this, every relevant bit of data should be known. And I do understand about “panic”. However, it is my opinion is that the Japanese government is downplaying this to a degree that will endanger the public more than help them.
I apologize if this post seems harsh, but I am just a little tired of vague details, speculation, and conjecture that I am getting from public sources, not including this forum of course. The links here are the best yet. And, I guess I am tired as well….these 7-12’s are wearing on me. Once again, SORRY.

Good night for now,
Scott


I really am a good egg, I'm just a little scrambled!

 

[unclesyd]

Sott12R,

You are not the only one that poses the same questions about how much CMA, large scale, is going on. I was listening to a Professor from MIT discuss the same problem about the available information and who is privy to it. He hit the IAEA very hard because as of yesterday they were not involved in any form and had no people in the loop. He also didn't like the position of the NRC for their comments, like we have it under review and so on. Whether this was by design or circumstance, that is the question. This type behaviour reminds me of the many times while working on problem or project when things start to go wrong in any sense there is nobody to be found. Let things turn around and get on track you have a hell of a time getting a seat on the front row.
As you state I too personally think that the information has not been updated and transparent as it needs to be. Whether or not a person can participate in the resolution of the problem materially is not the issue, but for people in the Nuclear Industry first hand information could be very valuable in any event going forward. If a person is skilled and dedicated in their job they act like a tickler file going forward. I can't count the times a short remark about a previous event turns on the light. The problem now is no one outside the circle will get the actual scenario of the event, only the opinions by one given in very sanitized version.

My favorite example of a dedicated employee was a Continuous Polymerization process operator who was cognizant of everything that went on around her while on the job. Though not officially in the loop her comments about a series of events prior to a particular failure were about 90% of resolving the problem. How she worked was shown one day when she ask me what was the purpose of that metal tag sticking through the insulation on pressure vessels the only person who ask me that question in 40 yeas working around them.

 

[trottiey]

Journalists need to be able to cover any possible story, and they can't be experts on everything. Even their science correspondents can't possibly be an expert in every science and engineering field. I think it would help if they recognized that engineering is quite separate from science and kept an engineering correspondent around. (And in some cases, they need to realize that engineering includes a lot more than just software and electronics.) It's the lack of media knowledge about engineering, much more so than about science, that seems to cause most of the errors.

It would also help if the electric utility had been able to provide someone who could translate the technical stuff for the journalists and politicians. When you get to the point where the prime minister exclaims "What the hell is going on?" on national TV, I think it's clear that TEPCO bears some responsibility for inadequate communications.

 

[Spartan5]

This strikes me as an extremely serious issue:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/18/world/asia/18nuclear.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=print

The military also announced that it had postponed plans to drop water on Reactor No. 4, which Gregory Jaczko, the chairman of the United States Nuclear Regulatory Commission, on Wednesday pinpointed as a cause for serious alarm.

On Thursday afternoon, the Self-Defense Forces and the Tokyo Metropolitan Police had begun deploying eight water cannon trucks to Reactor No. 3. Before the radiation level drove them back, the Tokyo Metropolitan Police had planned to use the trucks, which are usually used in riot control, to spray at least 12 tons of seawater into the reactor.

The Self-Defense Forces planned to send five fire trucks, carrying a total of 30 tons of seawater. The Japanese government said that the reactor typically needs 50 tons of water a day to keep from overheating.

Tokyo Electric Power Company, which operates the reactors, was also working to complete a high-power line to the plant to restore the electricity needed to run the cooling systems, according to a senior Japanese nuclear industry executive.

The maneuvers seemed at odds with the most startling assertion by Mr. Jaczko that there was now little or no water in the pool storing spent nuclear fuel at the No. 4 reactor, leaving fuel rods stored there exposed and bleeding radiation into the atmosphere. His testimony before Congress was the first time the Obama administration had given its own assessment of the condition of the plant, apparently mixing information it had received from Japan with data it had collected independently. “We believe that radiation levels are extremely high, which could possibly impact the ability to take corrective measures,” Mr. Jaczko said.

His statement was quickly but not definitively rebutted by officials of Tokyo Electric, the plant’s operator.

“We can’t get inside to check, but we’ve been carefully watching the building’s environs, and there has not been any particular problem,” Hajime Motojuku, a spokesman for Tokyo Electric, said Thursday morning in Japan.

Later, a spokesman for Japan’s Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency, Yoshitaka Nagayama, was more equivocal, saying, “Because we have been unable to go to the scene, we cannot confirm whether there is water left or not in the spent fuel pool at Reactor No. 4.”

At the same time, officials raised concerns about two other reactors where spent fuel rods were stored, Nos. 5 and 6, saying they had experienced a slight rise in temperature.

On Wednesday night, Mr. Jaczko reiterated his earlier statement and added that commission representatives in Tokyo had confirmed that the pool at No. 4 was empty. He said Tokyo Electric and other officials in Japan had confirmed that, and also stressed that high radiation fields were going to make it very difficult to continue having people work at the plant.

There is zero containment around this fuel which was removed from the reactor #4 in December and stored in a giant open air swimming pool in the building that has been destroyed by a hydrogen explosion.

 

[MagicSmoker]

Here's an exceptionally well done comparison of before/after pictures of various sites in the area of the tsunami, including the F-Dai-ichi complex:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/japan-quake-2011/beforeafter.htm

 

[Power2go]

Thanks MagicSmoker but I have noticed that the before and after pics concentrate on the impact of the tsunami on various locations. For the Fukushima plant we are of course now further with the before and after situation. On 13 March 16:17 I have posted my own before and after pictures on this forum which you can find when you scroll back.

The situation at Fukushima is now going completely out of hand with high levels of radiation which even prevent high flying choppers to release their loads of water.

The US is now sending an unmanned robot plane that can hover above the plant to get a good look inside to see the condition. Hope the electronics of that plane can handle the radiation levels.

In the meantime Japan is loosing so much electrical power due to the damages and shutdowns of various other plants that a total black-out of large cities like Tokyo gets closer and closer. The Japanese Governement has urged citizens to cut down on electricity.

In the north, like from Sendai, people are massively escaping the threat of a nuclear dissaster. At the moment the wind is more or less from the west (off land) but when that turns to north-east people living in the larger Tokyo area will be in big trouble.

http://www.jma.go.jp/en/amedas/205.html?elementCode=1

 

[jimbofitz]

Does the nuclear industry (especially in Japan) use robots for inspections in high radiation areas or to move radioactive material around? I, for some reason assumed that robotics could be involved to limit human interaction with radioactive material. Could they send something in to get a ground level look at the pools and reactors? Or to aim the hoses?

Just a thought...

 

[trottiey]

Settle down. Stress may be good when fighting off an animal, but technological problems require clear level-headed thinking. Stress from this event may have more potential to damage public health than the radiation does. An internet forum can't do much to help Fukushima directly, but through education we can alleviate some of the stress.

The choppers would have to fly really low in order to dump their water (or other substance) accurately. And it seems plausible that the radiation beams and plumes of smoke would be much stronger in the vertical direction, through a missing roof, than horizontally through thick concrete walls. It means that an important contingency is unavailable, but there are others.

If the wind shifts, that may increase internal exposure hazards. In the worst-case scenarios, that may contribute to a statistical rise in the incidence of cancers and other health effects in the coming years. This rise would likely only be detectable through epidemiological studies. It is too early to quantify the harm, but it is conceivable that the power shortages might wind up having more significant public health effects than the radiation.

 

[Zogzog]

Some good news, finally. (From WNN)

There are now 130 new personel at the plant, nuclear experts, engineers, rescue, military.

Several fire trucks are pumping water into the spent fuel pool and the best news, they have restored one of the emergency diesels so they now have power to the pumps to cool the cores. Unless something unexpected happens, it looks like the worst is behind us.

 

[electricpete]

it looks like the worst is behind us.

I hope you're right, but I'm not so optimic.

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(2B)+(2B)' ?

 

[electricpete]

optimic should've been optimistic

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(2B)+(2B)' ?

 

[printing724]

Has anyone seen or know anything regarding the effects of the drastically altered primary plant chemistry? From what I can tell, they are pumping in seawater, it is turning to steam, and the steam is being vented into the wetwell. If so, this leads to a massive buildup of chloride and sodium ions in the primary plant fluid. Not to mention the effects on pH control.

I would guess that the zirconium oxide coating (where intact) would be resistant, not sure about bare zirconium or other metals exposed to this brine solution. No one is worried about a crud burst here, or long term effects. But are there short term aggressive corrosion vectors that could come into play? (I hope not, and hope this is a rhetorical question)

I don't remember much of my reactor plant chemistry from when I was in the Navy, but chloride concentrations in the ppm range made us go ballistic as far as the secondary side of the steam generators were concerned (because of chloride pitting of the stainless steel tubes). The appropriate measurement unit for chlorides in the Fukushima plants is probably close to pounds per gallon...

Kevin Snyder
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