Getting back into work 1

[Poorpaulus]

Here's one for you...

I have been unemployed for 6 months because I got sacked from my last position. English law being a bit backward states that a company can sack you if they have "reasonable doubt". Basically, that means that you are guilty until proven innocent.

Would you employ someone that had been given the sack for stealing? I wouldn't, but then again, I didn't actually steal anything. Legally, there is nothing that I can do.

Any suggestions?

Paul.

 

[14159]

Whatever you say guys. It's obvious that you naturally (I've been there...) look at this 100% from an employee's perspective. If you become an owner, you'll see these issues completely differently. I know because I was an employee for years, ending about 10 months ago. I look back at my old one-sided, viewpoint and am embarrassed.

14159

 

[epoisses]

Not one-sided at all, from a 100% employee's perspective we would not allow you to fire people at all. You can fire people if you have to, can't you? What's the problem?

 

[Heckler]

14159,

About the example of firing a good employee for no reason: That employee could leave a perfectly good company with no notice, for no reason, with no legal repercussions. For some companies, such an event could close down the operation, or at least make life extremely difficult. Why shouldn't there be a law that states that an employee can't "fire the company" for no reason? It's called freedom and should go both ways.

I worked for a small company that had your mentality on business and they struggled after I left. But they didn't do anything to keep me....no raises and cut medical....but I was still putting in 15 hour days, showing up on Saturdays when needed, taking work home and being productive. It boils down to being a two way street the employer must meet certain obligation if he expects to employ and retain good engineers and the employee has to honest and forthcoming in offering their services to said company.

I would hope that no company would be short sighted enough to leverage their entire technical base on one engineer so much that if that person left, died, or got snatched by aliens would affect operations.

I worked in the bay area during the Dot COM boom and bust. I can tell you first hand empoyers had a tough time hiring and retaining engineers. They would offer outrageous hiring bonuses to entice engineers to sign onto their company.....

 

[Beggar]

14159:

FWIW, if you look at Rick Kitson's website you'll see that he is a business owner. In my case, my company's stock is held by many different people. I have a CEO above me and several people who report to me; I'm not the owner but do have primary managerial responsibility.

In return for the benefits of incorporation and the privilege of doing business, you do have a certain social responsibility. I think the gov't is perfectly justified in establishing work rules by which you must abide.

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Bring back the HP-15

http://www.hp15c.org

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[dporte17]

Paul:

Along the lines of some of the comments here, you should recognize that there are some legal avenues open in the extreme cases.

You may not have any legal options because they do not have to prove anything to fire you, but if they slander you in a reference to another employer that is a different matter. You can then sue them in civil court, and the basis of determination in civil court is "the balance of probabilities". You wouldn't even have to prove that they slandered you, only that it was more probable than not that they did. That could be an independent witness (like the above mentioned HR firm) calling them and getting negative information.

I don't promote using the courts as an option, actually I think that is done too often, but remember that you have options. Someone believing you did something when you didn't shouldn't have a profound effect on your life. It may, but there are options available to you.

Dave

 

[Slugger926]

I just skimmed through this thread and noticed everyone jumping on 14159 about his comments that a person could be let go for no reason.

In a "Right to Work State" such as Oklahoma, this is true. The employer can fire the employee immediately with no notice or reason. The employee can also walk out immediately the same way. This is only true if there are no contracts in place. This may also not be true if for the employer firing employees if the company has goveronment contracts requiring affirmative action quotas.

We got to remember on this board that not all states or countries have the same laws.

Also in a small state such as Oklahoma, if the employer mis-treats employees by firing without cause and notice, it would be hard for the employer to hire employees in the future. It is a small world.

 

[Heckler]

Slugger,

I think you might have missed something just skimming. The legal aspects are black and white with regards to "right to work" but in reality it goes further than what's apparent. For example, if a company had a habit hiring & firing engineers thus creating a high turnover…..do you think their reputation would be good or bad within the engineering community? I tell you that bad press would get talked about within the local engineering community. The same way if a company put a lot of effort into hired an engineer who shows up for three days and walks out. That engineer would be marked and it would affect them sometime down the road. The element that’s being left out of the “right to work” is an engineer networks within a community.

Not all companies follow the letter of the laws. Actually, most small companies don't have the resources to keep up with the changing employment laws. I worked at a company that refused me FMLA when my child was born.....I left three months later. They basically told me without actually telling me that they didn't care what was going on in my life as long as I was at work for 9 hours. That mentality came down from the top because it was the president that told me.

Here is a quote from another forum that fits what I'm trying to say

My sister with her Ph.D. in Psychology has always advised me that the person at the top of the organization will imprint his/her personality on the organization. If they're nice honest demanding people, then the org will be on a fairly even keel. If they're a whacko psycho backstabbing evil SOB, then the whole place will be neurotic and dysfunctional.

 

[lewtam]

This side-bar really does merit its own thread, I'll get back to the OP:

Paul, get out there mate. Take any job that is remotely linked to your chosen field, you must know someone who needs even some contract admin help.

As to whether I would hire you, if you had the right quals and experience, there's no way I could find out why you left your last position unless I heard through the grapevine. That means you may have to go further afield to avoid this. As discussed above, your previous employer is not able to slander. The one thing that would worry me however is a 6 month plus hole in your resume.

'Why did you leave you're last job?' - phrase an answer you are comfortable with and practise it until you can say it in your sleep. Any 'umm..err..personal differences' will make it appear like their was some sort of culpability on your part.

It's never too late, but the longer you leave it the worse it gets. Don't delay any longer. Take anything. I'd much rather an applicant that said 'hey, I had a hard time finding a job so I shovelled sh*t at a feedlot to pay the bills'. It shows a willingness to work that I respect.

LewTam Inc.
Petrophysicist, Head Stockman, Gun Welder, Gun Shearer, Ski Instructor, Drama Coach.

 

[Poorpaulus]

Thanks for all of your advice.
I have now applied for over 200 jobs. Out of that, I have had just 2 interviews. The feedback that I am getting from recruitment agencies is that I am a "Jack of all trades, master of none". However, I like to see myself as a Master of all Trades. I've just got to be give the opportunity to prove it.

I'm still hopeful that I will get a job soon. I have to. I've got too much to lose. I am applying for jobs ALL over the UK. I have even applied for positions in India!!! If I am offer a job, I'll take it.

Paul.

 

[epoisses]

If you're a jack of all trades, I guess your best bet would be a small company.

 

[cal22]

You may not have any legal options because they do not have to prove anything to fire you, but if they slander you in a reference to another employer that is a different matter. You can then sue them in civil court, and the basis of determination in civil court is "the balance of probabilities". You wouldn't even have to prove that they slandered you, only that it was more probable than not that they did.

So they can fire you and dump you out on the street all they like but as soon as they say a bad word about you, you can sue wihout requiring evidence.

Sounds like a world gone mad to me.

 

[plasgears]

Try this:

"We mutually agreed that we should part company to pursue other interests." Source: outplacement advisor.

It's one of many polished lines of patter to transition out of the subject of being fired.

 

[Poorpaulus]

I like that!

I think that I have now been Mutually Partitioned, not canned.