GFCI Receptacle in Washdown Environment? 3

[Brad-X]

Hi,

This is a question we've gone back and forth over in my department but haven't come to a good conclusion on. If there are any opinions out there, I'd greatly appreciate them:

Within an industrial setting where frequent washdown occurs (in this case Food & Beverage), should general-purpose receptacles be GFCI protected?

Due to the presence of water, I like the idea of GFCI's to protect the workers, however due to the very same water & moisture in the air, I fear there would be frequent nuisance tripping.

Further Info:
-We are using In-Use Weatherproof covers as we don't expect the worker's to unplug all cords before beginning washdown of the rooms. The best rating I can find on a CSA approved in-use cover is NEMA 3R, so not moisture-proof.

Thanks in advance,
Brad

 

[itsmoked]

I would definitely use them and I believe "wet areas" demand it in the code anyway. I know they are also quite sensitive to water as I lit mine up on our kitchen counter just last week. (Scary as hell too.) Perhaps consider GFI breakers back in the dry power panels instead.

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[Brad-X]

Thanks Keith. Appreciate the response.

In looking through the Canadian Electrical Code, I see specific requirements for GFCI's in Exterior applications, Pool-related areas, Patient Care areas, Elevators, and a few other specific use-cases, but I don't see a specific requirement in wet industrial areas. That said, I completely understand the advantage and why you're a proponent, as well as the similarity here to some of the above locations.

With regards to a GFCI breaker vs. receptacle, do you think the breaker style would actually improve nuisance tripping? I figured a ground fault was a ground fault regardless of which end of the line it was being sensed at, and if it does trip, the worker now needs to go back and find the respective breaker as opposed to being able to reset it locally.

 

[waross]

Hi Keith.
I am wondering why you recommend breakers. Maye there is something else that I don't know.
Years ago I wired a tiny hospital in the jungle. The power supply was a solar sourced stepped square wave inverter.
I found that the maximum length of run from a GFI device was about 15 or 20 feet. Longer than that and I had nuisance tripping with no load. (I was using the feed trough feature of the receptacles.)
As in immediate tripping when the circuit was energized.
I had to go with individual GFI receptacles.
I have found that compared to GFI breakers the GFI receptacles are often cheaper.
Receptacles are generally more convenient to trouble shoot when there is a trip.
It is frustrating to lose power with no indication as to why.
Is the power there but my equipment has failed?
Is this an over current trip or a ground fault/leakage trip?
Where is the panel?
Who is authorized to reset tripped breakers?
The advantage of breakers:
One breaker may serve multiple devices.
The down side of breakers:
One breaker may serve multiple devices and an issue with one device impacts all devices on the circuit.
I only consider breakers when I am unable to find a suitable receptacle for an application.
This may be higher currents, 240 Volt circuits, or other special cases.

Back to the question:

Within an industrial setting where frequent washdown occurs (in this case Food & Beverage), should general-purpose receptacles be GFCI protected?

Is this what you are looking for?
24-116 Receptacles subject to standing fluids on the floor or drenching of the work
area (see Appendix B)
All receptacles in areas subject to standing fluids on the floor or drenching of the work area shall be
(a) protected by a ground fault circuit interrupter of the Class A type; or
(b) supplied by an isolated system conforming to Rule 24-200.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

 

[IRstuff]

GFCIs are indeed annoying in nuisance trips, since they often occur well after you've forgotten where the actual breaker is, or can't see the breaker because there's stuff plugged into that it. Luckily, some do have LEDs that go red if tripped, assuming you can get eyeballs on it.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list

http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

 

[waross]

Sorry. I see now that the rule that I referenced applies to patient care areas.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

 

[Brad-X]

Sorry. I see now that the rule that I referenced applies to patient care areas.

That's funny- I saw that section originally and jumped to the same conclusion before going back and noticing the context myself.

Thanks for the GFI breaker anecdote, and the thoughtful comparison between breaker and receptacle.

 

[waross]

Have you checked the OHSA or WorkSafe regs?
In at least two provinces GFIs are required on temporary power circuits for construction sites.


Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

 

[Brad-X]

Have you checked the OHSA or WorkSafe regs?
In at least two provinces GFIs are required on temporary power circuits for construction sites.

Hmmm, I'd never thought to look. It appears Ontario's Construction Reg 213/91 requires GFI's for tools used outdoors or in wet locations only (195.2).

Typically the responsibility for construction power would fall back on the contractor, though, and wouldn't be explicitly designed.

 

[stevenal]

I've also seen a GFCI receptacle fail in a moist environment. No connected load, it just began burning. This occurred many years ago, perhaps they've improved since.
Also don't forget a GFCI only protects the load side only. Any leakage caused by moisture finding it's way to the line side won't be sensed.

 

[Brad-X]

Also don't forget a GFCI only protects the load side only. Any leakage caused by moisture finding it's way to the line side won't be sensed.

Good reminder.

 

[itsmoked]

1) GFI breakers are slightly more finicky than receptacles. Agreed.

2) GFI breakers are somewhat more expensive than outlets. Certainly.

3) Circuit breakers AVOID the wet. A trade up on flame-outs of wet receptacles.

4) Circuit breakers are considerably easier to deal with when outlets are clearly labeled as all commercial ones should be. (GFI PANEL 2A BKR 6) is much better than finding an upstream protecting receptacle in the next office behind the filing cabinet. (What would you even put on the label?)

My house has suicidal two wire armor running everywhere. I've protected every last run of armor from lighting up and burning down the house by using GFI receptacles that will instantly detect overloads ground shorts trying to power up the steel armor jacket into thirty foot long house matches. Occasionally a GFI will trip on the other side of a wall and it can drive you crazy as you check the apparatus for function/then the breakers/then remember it's a GFI receptacle elsewhere.

Bill, I'm suggesting GFI breakers here specifically because of the HIGH susceptibility of GFI outlets to moisture. Spray a tiny amount of tap-water into one and they always start frying!

Lastly I'll repeat a prior anecdote: ONLY USE QUALITY GFI RECEPTACLES that means Byant, Leviton, Hubbel, or perhaps Eaton. I've seen others dry spontaneously combust in a wall with nothing plugged into them.

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[jraef]

There are limited options for something that is going to be plugged in and LEFT plugged in, AND be connected to a GFCI receptacle, because it's difficult to implement all of the requirements of GFCI receptacles in a watertight format. They must be made capable of being tested and that's difficult in hose down. But if you use a GFCI protected CIRCUIT, i.e. fed by a GFCI breaker or with a testable GFCI protector in another room out of the wash-down area, then the options are:

NEMA 4X hose down rated plug (cord caps) and receptacles. There are from Woodhead (Molex), but most of the big names offer them too.

"Pin and sleeve" type, this is from Meltric, but again, most of the big names offer them too.

Or use a watertight door, but that would only be watertight after unplugging and snapping down the cover. This is from a company called GracePort. You can get these with or without a host of optional added ports, like Ethernet, 9 pin, DIN, USB, etc. etc.

" We are all here on earth to help others; what on earth the others are here for I don't know." -- W. H. Auden

 

[waross]

Thanks Keith. Good points.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

 

[Brad-X]

Thanks to everyone for the detailed responses. This is a great community.

I think that gives me enough of the pros and cons of all options to facilitate a good conversation within our department and come up with a standard moving forward.

 

[waross]

A political solution may be to list all the installation where GFI receptacles MUST be used and to make a suggestion to the safety committee to proactively require that GFIs be installed in the wash-down areas.
Tread carefully and discuss this with your supervisor before starting to create a paper trail.
Once a paper trail is in place there may be serious liabilities in the event that there is an incident that may have been avoided had GFIs been in place.
On the one hand this is a powerful incentive to the company to install the GFIs.
I can hear an attorney pointing out that despite that the codes do not require GFIs in this case, the codes are a minimum requirement and the company was aware of the risks involved yet chose not to the safety devices.
I imagine the phrase "due diligence" may be used.
On the other hand, management may resent such pressure being applied.
Starting a paper trail may have negative career implications.
Tread carefully.


Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

 

[djs]

While they may not be required by code, how much is safety worth? How much is the difference between a GFCI and a regular receptacle? You have probably spent more than that just talking about it.

 

[John2025]

I'm with djs on this. Years ago the owner of our company mandated GFCI everywhere after he read about a fatal electrocution at a competitor when a worker was using a hot air gun to dry wet equipment. It wasn't a code requirement, but it was the right decision, for sure.

 

[Brad-X]

While they may not be required by code, how much is safety worth? How much is the difference between a GFCI and a regular receptacle? You have probably spent more than that just talking about it.

If it was purely a question of cost, I would completely agree. I'm all for safe designs. The root question here, however, is of usability and nuisance tripping. Kind of like machine guarding...there are certain machines like bandsaws that you could fully guard for safety, but make them unusable in the process. If adding GFCI's causes frequent nuisance tripping that makes them unreliable and likely to be replaced with standard receptacles/breakers anyways, that's not great from a user's perspective either. That's really my question here.

Bill, thanks for the additional considerations there.

 

[John2025]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but my experience has always been that every time I've seen a "nuisance" trip it's turned out to be something that could easily have been a serious electrocution hazard and the trips forced us to fix it. I know what you're saying about things getting damp and tripping the GFCI, but it might be worth considering that maybe those nuisance trips are saving lives, especially on a general use outlet where you don't know the quality of the device they're plugging in.