Give current boss opportunity to match better job offer or just quit? 6

[BlastResistant]

I have been lured away from my current job by a local competitor firm by promises of more advancement opportunity, a better overall total compensation package, and a 40% increase in base salary! Any way I look at it, it’s a great opportunity and I’d be dumb not to take it. Should I give my current employer an opportunity to match (which I know they won’t), or should I just take the job and put in my 2 weeks notice (I will offer to stay as long as I need to of course to close things out smoothly, and my “new” employer is totally agreeable to that). I’ve heard that it is best to just take a great offer and quit, because even if your current employer matches things will never be the same (resentment, getting passed over for future advancement opportunities, etc.).

I’d like to hear from anyone willing to respond, but I’m especially interested in hearing from small/medium engineering firm owners. Would you guys hold it against me if I left for a better offer you couldn’t match? If you could match and had the opportunity to do so, would it change our relationship? I’m really torn on this.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Gymmeh]

Bob,

I tried your method of walking in and asking for a raise... it did not work at all. I guess it depends on your boss.

Then I walked in and quit and my boss was rather shocked.
I gave my boss three really good indications that I was not content before leaving, but either he didn’t care or didn’t get the point.
(Obviously these are Para phrased)
First attempt, the one guy quit and I an now the big man, can I get a raise and can I get RISA2D.
ANS: NO
Second attempt- my yearly review, could I get a little bigger raise since I have become very good at what I do.
ANS: No, I think 2.5% is fine
Third attempt, can I get some training with the engineers in other branches of the company to meet people I work with. I have become very knowledgeable at what I do so Joe, Bob (PE), and John (PE) respect my engineering. Can I get paid $X which is a reasonable market rate.
ANS: No. Your next review we will talk about it.
Forth try: I quit
ANS: What do you want? Why would you quit?

Maybe my Boss was bad or maybe he couldn’t get money because of Company Policies.

But, I think you need to walk in the offer so your boss knows you’re serious.

 

[csd72]

Gymmeh 2.5% is not a raise that doesnt even keep up with inflation!

If I got a 'raise' like that I would have my CV (resume) out the next day.

 

[KENAT]

By the sounds of it depends why you were looking.

If it's primarily for the money and you're otherwise happy then in some situations, like if JAE is your boss, it sounds like it's worth talking to your boss and maybe getting a counter offer.

However, it seems that if you're leaving for other reasons then the extra money you may get at your current place is just a band aid and in a few months you'll be back to where you were feeling disgruntled etc.

If you are being grossly under paid/compensated etc. then there are probably other associated issues than just the $ on your pay check.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[sundale]

If JAE were your boss, it would be worth staying with the firm just to receive his sage advice on daily basis!

 

[abusementpark]

Shouldn't it be management's responsibility to keep up with what competitive salaries are??

 

[ajack1]

A very interesting thread and like many others I agree with JAE.

Just a couple of points that I don’t think anyone has brought up, the companies that pay the most are often the worst not the best. Take as an example bringing up a child who is the better parent, one that spends time with the child to go and watch them play sport or goes out on bike rides with them, reads to them, cooks them a well balanced diet and generally tries to develop a healthy mind and body or one that locks them in a room but buys them every new toy on the market and feeds them constant fast food? Money isn’t everything, however that will not stop little Johnny wanting a new toy because his friend has one.

The second thing as someone who owns a company you have to make the books balance and that includes putting a little by for a rainy day. Markets change and if you are paying the absolute top dollar that leaves little room for manoeuvre with a market down turn and whilst someone who pays a lower rate can absorb this for a while this is not so for a top paying company, the likelihood of redundancy is far greater. Of course you can choose to take the big money now and deal with that problem if and when it arrives or try to minimise it in the first place.

Having said that 40% is a huge raise and one it would be foolish not to consider.

 

[bvanhiel]

Shouldn't it be management's responsibility to keep up with what competitive salaries are??

Nope, but it's a good idea if they want to keep employees from leaving for more money. Small companies especially may not have access to a good source of competitive salary data. Sometimes it's employees leaving that's the first indication that the pay scale is out of whack.

Money is the nomber one factor for most people when choosing between two jobs, but people tend to leave an established job because of their work environment (boss), not money. If you were looking, then it's probably because of your work environment, and that won't change even if they to give you more money.

40% is a big jump. If it's for the same work hours and travel expectations it's a no-brainer.

 

[vc66]

Maybe it's just my present situation that makes me feel like this, but I very highly doubt that many managers are as understanding and practical as JAE.



V

 

[KENAT]

"Shouldn't it be management's responsibility to keep up with what competitive salaries are?? "

I would have thought it was managements responsibility to get the best value for pay. As such simplistically it's probably in their interests to keep pay on the low side but high enough to have reasonable retention.

VC66, I hear what you're saying, but there are some good bosses around.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[Dinosaur]

I tend to agree with csd. In the structural engineering community, I think we know a heck of a lot for what we receive. ... And then there is the liability.

For my part, I have worked for six organizations, and eight bosses along the way. Yes, I didn't quit the job, I quit my manager. While looking, I found a better paying job, but usually for another poor manager. I would like to say that most of the managerial difficulties I noted were initiated by poor bean-counter policies from the top that the managers were stuck with.

Finally, I didn't give my managers a chance to counter after the first. The first made some oblique promise that I would be much happier to stay and that I should give him a chance to talk about it at my next review. I turned the other offer down and my manager forgot all about it by the end of the year. After that, if I was unhappy enough to look for a job, I wasn't negotiating with them anymore. I also wanted potential employers to know if I was talking to them I wasn't just going to use their offer as leverage against my old boss.

Make sure you like the job, and get paid as much as you can.

 

[Gymmeh]

CSD,

Yes, I think the current inflation is far beyond 2.5%.

If, I was a jerk I should have asked my boss if he wanted me to work less 2.5% less, since I was technique getting a pay decrease.

 

[JAE]

vc66, I guess all the managers I've had have been pretty good to just OK. Since I've been on both sides of the manager-staff positions, it's amazing to me the psychology that goes into how each side thinks.

As a manager, I found it incredibly difficult to know what to pay someone. I wanted to be fair, competitive, keep the staff happy, ...all of that.

But as a manager, I knew that our ability to get work and make a profit as a company depended on us not paying too much. Salary surveys helped a bit, but each person is unique, our city was unique, our firm had unique markets, etc. so the comparisons to the surveys were tenuous at best.

The owners of the firm had invested their own money, their own risks (houses at risk if firm failed) and many years of blood, sweat and tears. They do deserve a profit from their risks. The question is always how much is appropriate.

What ultimately happens is the firms who pay the "right amount" tend to keep staff, improve quality and keep clients coming back and still maintain a profit.

Firms that tend to underpay loose staff, develop poor quality or variable quality work, and loose clients but, for the short term, get a larger profit.

Firms that tend to pay too much don't make a profit and may ultimately sell out to another firm...or the owners might break up the partnership when one or more decide they want to at least get a profit from their risk.

It's all a balancing act.

 

[csd72]

A funny story,

One job offer I got contained an error, the employer had accidentally added an extra zero making it over half million a year.

When I called to accept the offer I said that I would love to accept that salary but I think he would go broke pretty quickly!

 

[BlastResistant]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts. You've all been really helpful.

 

[ajack1]

Once again I agree with the last post from JAE, however I think it goes deeper than that.

Take Joe and Fred for example, they both do the same job but in different offices, Joe thinks he is worth more money than Fred because he works in a more expensive area, Fred thinks he is worth the same money as Joe as he does the same job, which one is correct?

Of course it need not be location, one may have more experience but the other be more highly qualified, nearly all employees (and employers) have strengths and weaknesses how do you put a relative value on them? To add to that if you give one employee a 40% raise that may keep them happy for a while but more likely than not it will have everyone else in the company looking for a new job or at the very least highly unmotivated. An almost impossible balancing act.

 

[bf109g]

I recently made a move from a very large company to a very small company. Knowing that there would be no counteroffer (corporate culture was something like "it is a privelege to work at XXX, how dare you expect us to counteroffer"), I just bailed.

The move was right for me. Big salary increase, more challenging and work from home. I think I extended my life by a few years.

 

[DRWeig]

Great thread --

I appreciate all the thoughts and can relate to most of them.

One of my former employers had an even more cynical policy that they taught to managers verbally but avoided putting in writing: "Employees who bring job offers or market salary data in an attempt to negotiate a raise are generally not telling the truth. Do not negotiate. The only acceptable salary data for our market is maintained in Human Resources."

I got about 40% more when I left there, too...

My point is that the reaction of the boss to a job offer can vary from honest and thoughtful discussion (thanks, JAE) to cold, maniacal laughter accompanied by walking papers. It's hard to advise the OP without knowing the boss and the company. Gotta make the call based on what you know.

Stimulating!

Good on y'all,

Goober Dave

 

[MedicineEng]

Two different points of view: as a manager that has to decide other's salaries and when I decided to change companies.
a) I'm in my third company in almost 10 yearsworking experience, so I am not exactly a "job-hopper". In any of the former ocasions that I've moved I didn't give opportunity to the company to coutner-offer. There were several reasons for that: 1) I was not feeling being underpaid 2) It was not only the money 3) I think that my relatioship with the comapny would degrade.
Today I speak with former colleagues, I go lunch with them, no bad blood left behind. Of course being both companies "familiar type" there were some moments that I felt that they were not thrilling about my leaving.

As a manager:

I do not share JAE's idea of counter offer. The counter offer, if accepted will only trigger discontent among other workers in the same position. In my previous job, I made a decision to streamline the department, there were far too many persons. Not exactly because of company financial issues but productivity ones. At the same time, there was a boom in the economy that put the a lot of stress in the salary of workshop shopfloor workers (20% yearly increases). As such, my staff started to leave. At first, I tried to cotnract more staff but then I realized that to contract more staff this would create unbalances in the wages of the existent staff. At last, what I did was that everytime that a staff left, I would distribute his salary among the ones that stay. With a redefinition of priorities and reorganization of the department, 4 years later I managed to maintain the direct salary costs in the same level before the boom, happier workers (bigger salary, bigger bonus because there were less "mouths to feed").
The company saved in indirect costs (sick leaves, health insurance, double pay, etc.).

 

[lowedogg]

Blast,
I just went through all of this a little while back. I really enjoyed where I was, but I got a great new opportunity. After I had the offer letter, I wnet to tell my boss that I had gotten an offer and was going to be leaving. I did not mention counter offer or ask for anything. My boss was my mentor and he offered a lot of insight to my situation. He opened my eyes to some potential pitfalls with either situation that I had not realized. After he informed upper management of my decision they called me in. They talked and I mostly listened. I did make it clear that I wasn't leaving because of any perceived wrong. I listened to their offer but ultimately took the new job. No bridges were burned and I am welcome back anytime.

I guess the moral of the story is, don't focus the conversation on money. Just tell them you have accepted an offer and let them react. If they want to counter offer to keep you, they will, if they don't, they won't. Don't be the one to open the pandora's box.

 

[spongebob007]

Ask youself this:

Is your current company someplace that you really want to work for if you are forced to threaten to leave in order to earn a fair wage?

Playing the counter offer game is a horrible idea. If the new opportunity seems like something you would be happy with then just leave your current job and don't look back.

Another thing to consider is that if you play the counteroffer game you burn two bridges-your current employer and the prospective employer. If you turn down their job offer they will surely want to know why. In future job searches don't even bother sending them a resume-it will go right in the round file. If somebody takes the time and effort to interview you and craft a job offer they don't want to be seen as a pawn in your negotiations game.

I read somewhere a number of years back that statistics show that the majority of employees who accept a counter offer end up leaving the company within one year anyway. Either of their own will or escorted out the door by security!

Remember this: Your boss is NOT your friend. He is an agent of the company and must act in the best interest of the company, and at the end of the day, he's looking to cover his own ass. He is held accountable to his bosses for the schedules you work to. When you come to him with a resignation he's thinking: "Oh crap, now the new widget design project isn't going to be finished on time. The damn VP is gonna have my head on a platter." Your unfinished project now becomes your managers headache, and he's going to do what it takes to get you to stick around to see your work through to completion. But since he now sees you as a traitor who can be bought and sold to the highest bidder, he's coming up with a plan B, and that plan DOES NOT involve you.

Not only are you seen as a traitor by management, but your relationship with your co-workers will also never be the same. When word gets out that you threatened to quit, and trust me, it will, you will certainly be the topic of water cooler discussions. Don't be surprised if your actions foster resentment in some co-wokers and inspires similar actions in others.

Bottom line:

Playing the counteroffer game poisons the water. In nearly every case it will come back to haunt you.