Give Up The !@#$ CAD File!!! 1

[Maha151]

Civil Engineers; What is your reason for not giving up the CAD file for estimating / earthwork calculation purposes?

The oldest excuse is that someone could take the data and perform some type of malicious act with it. For this, you execute a CAD release agreement and do not include your stamp in electronic format.

Another reason I've been given lately is that it would give some contractors an unfair advantage. This is total BS and carries no validity what so ever. Any contractor who is not utilizing modern CAD interface take-off software is probably not qualified to bid the job to begin with.

Just as we no longer have to spend weeks to do a "hand-calc" cross section / grid take-off, just as engineers no longer draw their plans with an HP calculator and drafting arm, the digitizer take-off is a thing of the past!
Just consider how ridiculous and redundant this process is. You take a plan sheet that was created electronically, you print the information out on a sheet of paper (kill some more trees) then you trace all of the data from that plan sheet back into an electronic format to create an earthwork model.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Good question and why do they all send me PDF files that have NO dimensions and have been faxed, copied and have NO scale left on them???

 

[civilman72]

Civil engineers produce construction plans and that's what clients pay for. ACAD is a drawing tool. It replaces rulers, pencils, protractors, etc. and our clients own their construction plans, not our tools (or CAD drawings) used to create those plans.

My personal concern is with others assuming accuracy of CAD files. Very often the construction plans are correct, but the CAD files used to create these drawings do not perfectly represent those hardcopy plans. Another legitimate concern is with competing engineering companies "stealing" notes, details, etc. - which is easier to do with a CAD file.

But with proper qualifications, CAD files should and can be exchanged.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

I can copy computer typed or hand typed notes as good as anyone else. There are thieves in a every venue of the world. Sometimes - you just have to trust some people.

We had one client - WELL know in the entertainment field who routinely would take our "bid" drawings and "shop" them.

We started copyrighting and reminded them that it was almost an automatic $100,000 fine if they did it again. They stopped.

 

[beej67]

Off the top of my head, I'd be worried that a few of my contours weren't elevated, or were exploded, or etc, and the technician doing the earthworks isn't going to check. Then when the earthwork comes out borked because there's a bust in the TIN the engineer gets blamed when it should have been the estimator's job to check the TINs.



Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[Maha151]

beej67: You are absolutely correct. It is the estimators job to build his own 3d model and check for accuracy. Most of the time if I get a file with the "z" value applied or a TIN layer I do not use it. I will clear all "z" values and start with "annotation" lines. Then build the model referencing the paper plans.
I know there are some estimators who seem to get a little miffed when the 3d data isn't applied. As for me, I have spent way too much time searching for an obscure busted "z" value, I would rather start with a clean palate.

 

[cvg]

Many if not most contracts give title to all documents, design, drawings, equipment, files, materials, input materials and output materials etc. to the Owner. This would clearly include the cadd base files. Even if the contract does not transfer the ownership of these documents, the data is still often provided as a gesture of good will to the Owner.

Either way, contractors should obtain this data from the Owner, not bug the engineer for it. The Engineer does not have any contractual relationship or authority to hand the data out to anyone, especially without obtaining prior approval for the data.

 

[francesca]

civilman72 do you still live in the '70s? Most DOT clients require electronic deliverables and even mom 'n pop shops use proper CADD design tools. There are some (IN) who only want PDF, and others (FL) who have a workspace environment so stringent it will reject your changes if they are not in compliance with their CAD/Design Standards. We are moving to a BIM world where - if we ever figure out the legal issues of ownership and liability for inaccuracy - deliverables will be multi-disciplinary models.

 

[beej67]

That's easy for DOT or residential subdivisions, francesca, where most or all of your grading is automated from your alignments and templates. But if you're doing large commercial, industrial, or dense multifamily site design, many engineers don't like to design from the TIN to the plans, and instead like to go from the plans backward to the TIN if necessary. The only thing the TIN is doing for the engineer is giving him an earthworks check.

The simple fact is that BIM costs the engineer extra time and money. If the engineer isn't being paid to provide a BIM to the client, then whatever 3d modeling he's doing in-house should stay in-house because it might not be perfect, it might only be "good enough" for his purposes, and a third party won't know how good "good enough" is.

Did the engineer meticulously draw in breaklines for all his retaining walls on site? Probably not. Will the contractor check to see that they're in before putting together their preliminary estimate, in today's business environment where he's chasing 30 jobs that month? Probably not. Will there be money in the contractor's budget to go back and double check the earthworks to the gnat's rear end when he's awarded the job? Not likely. When there's a bust because the staking plan was built on a bad TIN, who pays? The contractor is going to blame the engineer. The engineer is going to blame the contractor. Both hire lawyers, both lose money, and it's just a sad scene, that could have been easily avoided by the engineer NOT providing information to the contractor and making the contractor go off the plans, which are the things the engineer stamped in the first place. It's not like it takes that much extra time to trace your contours in PayDirt.

Maha151 clearly does it properly. The engineer can't be sure that Maha151 is going to do the earthworks for the contractor. Could be BigBubba515 doing the estimate.



Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[francesca]

beej the whole point of BIM is that it doesn't cost more money in the design phase; it costs less money or lets you test multiple alternatives for the same money. The model is parametric and it's simple to add additional levels of detail. You can SEE if the engineer put in all the retaining walls and add them if they were missed. You can cut cross-sections (if that's how you want to do construction) directly out of the model. BIM doesn't mean that all you get for construction information is a TIN!

You're in Hotlanta where they used to use CAiCE and now use InRoads for GDOT projects. InRoads doesn't have dynamic updating, but it's a parametric 3D model that you can visualize as 3D components. You can bring it all into ProjectWise Navigator and link to a schedule and visualize the construction timeline or you can perform clash detection on your utilities. GDOT has already paid you to create all this content (the PWN stuff is trivial in terms of time commitment), so why would you not pass it onto the contractor? It's not like you own the data.

 

[MOsoil]

It really is a liability issue. Once the surveyor/engineer passing along the TIN, it's out of his control. Inadvertent edits to the TIN by the estimator or designer make the file a ticking timebomb. The only valid, defendable document is the signed and sealed, paper drawing. Many, many clients are not sophisticated enough to understand this complex issue and will likely side with the contractor, who is usually dangling a big carrot in front of him.

You can have all of the contracts and agreements you want, and have your attorney go over them again to verify that you're protected. Just be sure you have enough cash in the bank to cover your Professional Liability Insurance deductable.

 

[civilman72]

Francesca - Lots of valid reasons to be concerned with giving CAD files to contractors - most of which have all been mentioned. And no I'm not living in the 70s, but you need to come back to the present if you think civil engineers are designing in 3D and BIM for all of their projects.

If we know we are working with a DOT, or will be working with architects and other professionals in a 3D-integrated design than we develop CAD drawings that can also be used and relied upon by others.

But I highly disagree that these types of accurate CAD files do not cost more money. Our office goes back and forth on whether to create projects in Civil 3D or use simple LDD-CAD drafting tools, particularly on small projects where the profits are low and competition is high (for what it's worth, we have a very well developed Civil 3D design process within our office). And on these smaller projects, do you think a contractor cares if we design in Civil 3D or simple ACAD when he comes knocking on our door looking for those CAD files?

I also disagree with the statement that we don't own the data - who told you this? Probably not an attorney (unless it was your client's attorney). If we create the data, how is it that we don't own it?

 

[brandonbw]

I don't release CAD files for a lot of reasons. One of which the project isn't paid up. I bet that is much more common when it's time for the earthwork estimator to get involved than most realize. Also I will not release CAD files to anyone except the client unless they give me the okay.

I don't mind giving the CAD files out as long as I know we are getting paid for the work already done. Also, PDF's just seem so much easier for almost everyone else on a project to work with.

Doesn't the Civil already know what disciplines need what kinds of files to work with already? There is more to the reason to why the OP is asking this question.

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil and Structural Engineering

http://bwengr.com

 

[beej67]

beej the whole point of BIM is that it doesn't cost more money in the design phase

But see, the thing is, it *does* cost you more money in the design phase, if you're doing high density commercial, residential, condos, etc. You only really save money in design by using BIM if you're in transpo or single family residential, and transpo's been using BIM principles since Softdesk 8. Doing BIM level modeling for a condo complex or a big box, of enough detail to be confident you're giving something 100% right to the contractor, is vastly beyond the scope of most site engineering.



Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[francesca]

Having designed low-density residential subdivisions in both Terramodel (2.5D) and Civil 3D, I can assure you that the BIM solution (Civil 3D) took far less time.

 

[beej67]

That's what I said, above. BIM is worth it for transpo or single family residential, which is very akin to transpo, because your grading is tied to your alignments and run off templates. In those cases BIM saves you time. But it's usually more headache than it's worth for other types of site development, so very few companies do it without some kind of arrangement to be paid for the extra work.

Ever done a warehouse in BIM? It's faster to just draw your contours by hand and elevate them. Ever done a Georgia style 3 phase erosion control plan in BIM? You'll pull your hair out building surfaces for phases of the development that are temporary anyway.

BIM is only situationally cost effective. And for the situations where it's not, you need to either eat the extra cost, be paid for your extra cost, or decide not to take the extra effort up front.



Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[Learning2estimate]

What is a TIN and a BIM

 

[cvg]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangulated_irregular_network

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Building_Information_Modeling