Going backwards in technology...? 4

[fistandantilus]

So my boss wants me, and the rest of our group, to essentially go back to the way things were done about 10 years ago...

My boss has no current understanding of ANY of the software that I (and others in my group) use - which includes various CAD/CADD programs, some BIM, and some other 3D programs. He got frustrated because our last project "took too long" and he felt that since he doesn't know the current software, then he needs to step us back in time to a point where he does understand the tech (which he last used about 10 years ago).

My group all feels that this is ridiculous knee-jerk reaction to the problems with our last project...
I don't want to bore everyone with the details, but the software was NOT the problem: it was one of communication (lack-of) and last-minute changes with no accounting by management for the time it takes to make such changes.

Nevertheless, I had a lengthy discussion with my boss that this is not the way to do things. The step back to older ways of doing things may help him understand the process better, but it only adds to our entire group's workload. Thus making the inevitable last-minute changes twice as difficult! I further explained the communication and change issues as well.
However, he was not swayed, and continues to insist that we do things the old way, and then MAYBE, on the next project we will slowly go back to current way - but not entirely... he "will see".

I understand that managers need to manage, but this feels more like a power issue. I say he should learn the software and get up-to-date on what he is managing, which is basically my question...

Should we fight back, and "emphatically request" that he updates himself, or should we just capitulate and say "yes boss" ??


(P.S. I purposely left out details of my job description, industry, specific software, etc... b/c I believe that the discussion should not be about that... it is more about the principle!)

 

[CajunCenturion]

==> Should we fight back, and "emphatically request" that he updates himself, or should we just capitulate and say "yes boss" ??
To win what? And at what cost? If you're willing to pay that price, sure then fight on.

==> he was not swayed, and continues to insist that we do things the old way, and then MAYBE, on the next project we will slowly go back to current way - but not entirely... he "will see".
Who works for whom?

Play it his way and when and if you're boss allows a 'maybe', make the most of it so your boss experiences the benefits, not just hears about it from someone fighting against him.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[MadMango]

Start looking for a new company. You don't want to lose any skill set you have just because your employer lacks that skill set.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of these Forums?

 

[fistandantilus]

CajunCenturion...
Thanks for the response, and to answer your questions:

==> To win what?
To keep my work/life balance! With our current technology, our group already pushes the boundaries of extreme overtime on the back end of a project (which we don't get paid for, since we're all salaried employees), but with doing things the old way, we are looking at at least a 20% increase in manhours (but probably more like 40% because we haven't done it the old way for so long, and some of the younger guys = never!). Our typical projects run about 2 months time, and as with most industries, it is in the last third/quarter of a project where all the changes occur and where the need for flexibility comes into play (which has been made easier to do with the current software). I've been in my industry for 18 years, and my boss has been at it for about 20 - but he didn't go the tech route. I did. I've seen the software changes over the years, and I know what works and what doesn't, but even so, my experience and explanations don't seem to be able to change his mind.

==> If you're willing to pay that price, sure then fight on.
Yes, I am. My skills are in demand. I turn away/ignore head-hunters on a bi-weekly basis, at least. But who really enjoys changing jobs? I have a fairly good thing going where I'm at, other than a week of 80+ hours once every 2 or 3 months, and then this current boss issue...

==> Play it his way...
I get your point, but he has experienced the benefits on every other past project that has come in on time and on/under budget for the last 5 years. I see his reaction as simply an OVER-reaction to the problems on our last project. It seems to me that he's obviously frustrated that he doesn't know the technology, but to make our whole group pay (in extra overtime, frustration, and eventually lower morale) for his lack of skills, just seems completely asinine to me.


So, with that said, I suppose what I am asking for - is that if I choose to "fight on", then how would other people approach it?

 

[1gibson]

If there is mutual respect, offer to educate your boss. Explain why those changes took so long, but were still faster than other methods. Find a real PITA example and ask the boss how long that type of change should take, then tell him how long it will take with the current software. Maybe all the details will replace his frustration with boredom, and he will concede so he doesn't have to discuss it further. If the boss refuses to listen, and will not accept your offer to bring him up to speed, see next paragraph. And/or update your resume.

If there is no mutual respect between the boss and the group, then maybe the old method will mysteriously take much longer than it should. The proof at the end of the project will be undeniable. The group can control the outcome regardless of what the boss says, and the boss will not win (if you are discreet enough, will not even know about) that type of power struggle. Not recommended!

 

[CajunCenturion]

@ fistandantilus
First all, the work/home balance and overtime situation is important, but an entirely different issue. I absolutely understand the need for work/home balance, and I fully support that you should be paid for all overtime. But if you're not being paid for overtime, then you address that issue. It really doesn't matter if the overtime is spend doing things the old way or how you would like them, if you're not being paid for overtime, then address that. I get your point about doing things the old way will take longer, thus will require more overtime, but not being paid for overtime is not being paid for overtime regardless of which system you're working.

==> Yes, I am.
Then by all means, engage with the next headhunter and move on. No one enjoys changing jobs, but you're far better off securing the new job while you're struggling with the current one, than fighting the current job, and perhaps losing, and having to secure that next job without being in a current one.

I'm not disagreeing that he's over-reacting and as you say, being asinine; however, I am suggesting that it be equally unwise to challenge him on that at this time. It's apparent that you've tried to talk to him, but he has chosen to go in that direction. I don't want you to over-react to his decision and reject his authority and make an unwise move yourself.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

 

[CorBlimeyLimey]

fistandantilus,
What exactly would be involved to "essentially go back to the way things were done about 10 years"?
Would it entail using 2D instead of 3D?
Drawing board vs CAD?
Excel instead of BIM?

Without knowing at least some details it's hard to understand the extent of the problem, or to suggest compromises.

 

[MintJulep]

About twenty years ago the company I was working for faced the exact same mandate from the Owner.

Since those were the days of 2D cad the step back was literally "to the boards".

Fortunately I was not a project that I was working on.

The outcome was that the product was so bad that after a few years of trying to make it work the end user scrapped ours and replaced it all with a competitor's equipment - at substantial cost.

Think they ever got any more work with that client?

You don't have a tool problem, you have a process problem - or so it appears from your telling.

Your boss measures success in time and money. That's what bosses do.

You need to convince him in those terms.

Show him in detail exactly where the time was lost and the money wasted - accurately and dispassionately.

Suggest SOLUTIONS.

 

[MikeHalloran]

You're screwed.

Get a new job.

Then, leave.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[dvd]

You are writing in absolutes about a fairly subjective issue. What makes you so sure you are right? Maybe the hours on the project should have been similar to another project for which a good profit was made. Or perhaps it is not the technology at all, but the people who are using the technology can't be depended on to develop the proper level of detail. Please indicate why either side is out of touch.

 

[moltenmetal]

Going back to the last known working revision of buggy software is one thing- ditching the whole shopping cart and going back a generation is entirely another. This is messed up...my sympathies, but I have no useful suggestions for how to fix this. Keep one eye on the door, that's for sure.

 

[Gymmeh]

Definitely get your resume out there.

This is a great opportunity to work on your "interpersonal" skill. As every boss and company ticks a little differently, I have no good advice for you on how to do this. I have pushed a boss to the point of telling me where the door was, so my advice might not be helpful anyway.

Good Luck

 

[fistandantilus]

Great feedback. Many thanks. I don't post much, but I have always enjoyed reading these forums.

Nevertheless, I'll try to respond to all:

1gibson:
I thought there was mutual respect - until this came up. I did provide several detailed examples in my first meeting with my boss after he made the announcement. I did ask him about the screwed up project and his perspective, and all I got was a flippant response with no hint that he cared about the "why" things went wrong. Mentioning all the past "good" projects was moot - as he made it clear that his agenda was the gospel and we are doing it his way from now on.
Clearly, the mutual respect was gone. As you mentioned, going the passive-aggressive route and sand-bagging on the next job is not recommended, nor is it my M.O.

CanjunCenturion:
Good advice on not overreacting and making an unwise move to soon. I agree, finding a new job is always easier when you still have your current one - always good advice to hear when one is frustrated with their current situation.
The overtime topic is definitely one for another thread, but to briefly touch on that... I honestly had not minded it so much when it was just the last week or so of a project, and the times in between projects were fairly light - thus it all balanced out in my mind. But this new mandate was that famous proverbial straw...

CorBlimeyLimey:
As I mentioned in my OP, I don't think the specifics are necessary because I believe that will take the discussion down a different path. This is more of a principle question for me... Am I right in feeling that my boss should be more educated on the software our team uses? I don't expect him to be an expert - that's our jobs - but shouldn't I be able to explain the process to him, and have him understand it, and then shouldn't he further understand why something went wrong (on 1 project in the past 5 years) and not overreact and blame the tool...?

MintJulep:
Good example. Good advice. I will approach my boss with our estimated increased labor numbers and see where that gets me. Although, being salaried and working on a business development budget (i.e. overhead and not client-billable), it is doubtful that the overtime numbers will give him much pause - as he is of the mindset that we are paid to "get the job done" - not by the hour.

MikeHalloran:
Yep. That's most likely the end-game strategy. Thanks for the response.

dvd:
My boss made it an absolute issue. See my first response just above to 1gibson. It seems pretty cut and dry to me. 1 bad project in 5 years, same team, same tech, same level of detail... only difference was the last project was poorly managed (outside of our group) and had poor communication across teams that trickled down and affected my group. My boss is feeling pressure from above for a flawed project, and I understand his frustration, but he made it clear that this was his decision to go backwards because that's how he feels he can best manage things. He was not inclined to hear arguments to the contrary.

moltenmetal:
Thanks for the response - glad I'm not the only one with no idea how to fix this.

Gymmeh:
You are right - this is pretty much the the breaking point for me... I either have to figure out how to get through to my boss, or find the door. As a mentioned above, I thought there was mutual respect and that he was open to input from his team, but apparently that only worked when things were going well. It is very frustrating to realize that what I thought was a good team - is now potentially crumbling because of one bad project and the overreactions of one person. I thought I had used all my best negotiation skills when I first discussed this issue with my boss - but he simply wouldn't hear me out.


Bottom line: my job hunt has begun.

 

[KENAT]

So every year or two (plus the odd conversation in between) my colleagues/management want to swap to popular 'Solid' CAD system from less common 'SOLID' CAD system we currently use.

I've never been able to really persuade to them why this is a bad idea, the fan boys of the other CAD system have more clout than me I guess such that even when we did an ROI & investigation that basically made it clear it didn't pay off they didn't really accept this.

It's reared its head again and my attempts at dodging it aren't looking like being successful and it's been made one of my goals for the year.

I made it as clear as I could to my immediate manager that I don't think it's a good idea, that I don't want to lead the project but that I'm not going to stand in the way if they want to do it.

So I've put my job seeking efforts up into the next gear.

Sorry, don't know what to tell you - the only thing that's helped me so far is someone in another department that is affected by the CAD change seems to have a bit more sense and managed to keep this on the back burner.

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[hokie66]

To go back to the way we did things 10 years ago will require a big learning effort...allow 20 years.

 

[tys90]

Sounds like you've tried to reason with him, have others in the group done this as well? If you've exhausted all reasonable avenues with your immediate boss, is there someone you can discuss this with that is above your boss? Can you setup a group meeting with a higher-up disguised as a discussion about why the previous project failed? New perspective from someone who has more power can be enlightening to everyone in the group. Be prepared with data or evidence to backup your thoughts you posted here so you can answer questions they may have.

 

[MikeHalloran]

BAD IDEA!

Going over your boss's head will never have a good outcome for you.

You may be thinking 'unless you already have a back channel to a higher up'. BTDT; that doesn't turn out well either.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[tys90]

And anything else he would do would have a good outcome? That's why I asked if he's exhausted all reasonable avenues with his boss. There are ways to tactfully ask for advice and include his boss and coworkers in the discussion. No one needs to be sneaking around people's back and trying to jump past command. People higher up usually have more experience and have can make worthwhile suggestions that everyone can learn from. If this is the only project in 5 years that went that badly, it could be a chance to talk to those people.

 

[jagad5]

Always remember that just because you're using technology in no way demonstrates that you're doing it better. Many "new and improved" methods are more expensive than the productivity improvement. Sometimes it is better to automate the hand calculations than to attempt to interpret the 3D FEA model. We have designed some of our parts exactly the same way for more than 40 years, have an exceptionally high reliability record and have tried more advanced methods of predicting structural failure that suggest that nothing should work in the first place - of course, what we really should do is figure out why the new methods predict failure, contradicting millions of flight hours of failure free service, but that would be a science fair project, and we continue to succeed.

Doug

 

[graybeach]

Doug has a very good point. I wonder if your situation could be similar to a time I was managing the bridge design for a large interchange project and insisted that a batch type cogo program be used to calculate the horizontal geometry and a spreadsheet be used to calculate the vertical geometry. Yes, I got some grumblings from my team. But in the end they really came around. The alternative would have been to use cad and Inroads to do this, but I felt this would put a technician in control of something with no safety factor with no way to document checking. The way we did it, the cad drafting served as a check on our geometry calculations. In the end all of the geometry for 6 curved skewed bridges was found to be completely correct in the field. We avoided embarrassing and time consuming situations like having a 2" error in concrete barrier location that could not be seen on a cad screen but created huge issues during construction.