hard time understanding management 11

[jeffcivil2]

I'm a civil engineer with about 4.5 years experience having a hard time at work that's causing emotional stress and need to seek some advice.

I work in a small civil engineering/landscape architecture firm. The two owners of the company are both seniors and do most of the work. They don't trust anyone else and are very age discriminatory. The problem that I am having is that my work ethic is constantly being question by them in the form of rude remarks. I am upset with this because I don't have a lot of work because they don't ever delegate work for me to do. They have a crappy way of management where they walk around and say "what are you working on?" I find this to be very arrogant such that I want to blurt out "you tell me, you're supposed to be my manager". I've had this problem with another engineering firm I worked for. There is a complete lack of management.

I'm so upset I'm thinking of changing careers and I'm thinking that NO WONDER engineers are the lowest on the totum pole as far as pay scale profession-wide. In my opinion they shouldn't have to ask me if i'm busy or when I'll be done. If they really were half-decent managers they would pile stuff on me instead. I asked my boss once why he didn't just pile stuff on my desk and his response was: "because we're trying to gauge your progress".

I've gotten to the point where I really don't care about this job or this profession.

 

[ykee]

If you are going to spend the rest of the day surfing the net, surf for jobs & dust off your resume, you might need it soon!

 

[daveh55et]

I pretty much agree with everyone. I'd suggest using a response like "I'm just about done with X, do you have something available for me to work on?".

 

[jmw]

Do the bosses just yell at you?
If they yell a everyone, then they are the problem, move on.
If they only yell at you then you have a problem and I'm not suggesting it is your fault but that since your bosses can't solve the problem between you and them you will have to. Moving on without finding the solution may mean it will crop up wherever you go and whatever discipline you follow.
Try a different approach.
Try and project yourself as keen and happy and efficient. You don't have to ask for more work directly just show you are ready to take on more work through enthusiasm.
Of course, if his is a problem between you and your bosses and no one else and your bosses and this is the same that you experienced elsewhere then you really do have a problem that you need to solve.
I suspect from what you have said about asking "why they don't just pile the work up on your desk" that maybe you need to look to your communications skills and be objective in asking if it isn't you who is a bit confrontational or abrupt.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[csd72]

If you have had the same problem in 2 separate firms then I would suggest that the problem probably lies with yourself.

Mind reading is not something they teach at business school (even at Harvard) so expecting any manager to do this is unreasonable.

Every person takes different times to do different tasks so there is no way they can judge exactly when you will finish a job. They are probably worried about overloading you, so they dont want to give you a new job until you have finished the old one.

You will need to develop the people skills to work with people that you dont like, even those you hate, so this is a good time to practice it.

If I am expecting to run out of work soon I will talk to my manager and say that I am still busy, but I expect to be running out of work soon. If I am waiting on information to finish my jobs I will also explain this when I talk to my boss about fill-in work.

It is called communication.

 

[Bester2]

OK here is my experience and this may sound like blasphemy but I think that there should be a separation between management and engineering. I do not believe that active engineers should be given the responsibility with managing engineer's tasks. I believe this should be handled by a person who is solely responsible for the project/product. Senior engineers should be responsible for working on the more difficult aspects of a project and should also be available to answer questions that junior engineers may have. Senior engineers should also work with the management personal to quantify the tasks that need to be accomplished for a project into parts that can be given out to employees and tracked. This project flow sheet should be available to all personal on each project to see what needs to be done and what they are currently working on. This freedom of information will eliminate the problems that you are having. If all of the information is published you can go to your boss and say “I have completed step 6, I see no one is working on step seven I will start on step seven, please place my name as currently working on step seven." When you are looking for your next job make sure you ask some of these questions. Ask the company how they track what projects you are working on. Make sure that a project/product manager is the final authority when it comes to assigning your tasks. This project/product manager will never be upset if you say that you are finished with a project and need more work because you will know exactly what work is available. This system may not work for everyone but you sound a lot like myself and I truly enjoy working for someone outside the engineer loop. WARNING: The most common problem when working for someone outside the engineer loop is that this person may have unrealistic expectation when it come to how fast you can get your assigned work completed. If you think this is more annoying than your current problem just suck it up and deal with what you got.

Good Luck


Brian
SW 2007 SP 5.0

 

[ykee]

I agree with Brian's comments about separation of technical and management staff, and generally believe in the model of having functional managers for technical guidance and project managers for managing workload.

I really suspect in this case, the problem is with management (despite jeffcivil2's track record of having the same problem twice). Small consulting firms are generally run by technical experts, who usually make bad managers -- if they were good at management & dealing with people, they'd have more clients & be a bigger firm. My experience is that smaller consulting firms almost inevitably have owners/senior staff that are very hard to work with/for (note: I've never worked for a smaller consulting firm, only worked with them on projects).

 

[GonzaloEE]

I've met some (not all) senior Engs. often showing a too conservative frame of mind, and even some territorial attitudes very harmful for project advance.
They might regard the junior Eng. as a threat for the procedures they're accustomed to, or reputation. Even worse if you seem too ambitious, that's plain war.
Try offering help or asking for advice often, so they'll see you're acknowledging their experience and competencies. If it won't work, bail out.

 

[KENAT]

Management is almost certainly part of the problem. I've never met a perfect manager though some are better than others. Certainly yelling, teasing, demeaning etc not generally good management tools in typical engineering environment. As for age discrimination, those of us that are on the young side tend to be a touch arrogant/overconfident, even if we don’t' see it, and some older engineers react to this so make sure & take a good look at yourself before you go to far with that line of thought.

However, apart obviously from myself ;-) I've never met a perfect employee either, some very good but I don't think any perfect. Frankly just from your posts it sounds like you're part of the problem:

The problem that I am having is that my work ethic is constantly being question by them

...so I can't work and plan on surfing the net for the rest of the day

Do I need to spell that one out? Unless of course you have a real sense of humor and it was intentional.

The "what are you working on" thing is not the question itself but the way it's asked. The way I perceive it to be asked is "you damn better be working on something right now" because when I respond with "nothing" or "i'm free" they seem to get upset and play it like I'm a bad employee with no work ethic. "

They are paying you correct? So isn’t it reasonable for them to expect you to be working on something? If one of the people I help supervise said this I wouldn’t’ be pleased. As others have said, why wouldn’t they ask you what you’re working on so they can prioritize, plan ahead etc, are they meant to be mind readers?

Twice a week or so I get together with my direct manager and the others in my department working on a major project and we tell him what we’re working on, report progress, check we have the right priorities etc. I don’t get offended by this (although sometimes the meetings drag on a lot longer than need be which is annoying). Then once a week I have to update my overall work log & once a month I also have to do a brief status report for my managers boss. Now this is verging on overkill but the principle like Greg put of having something like this is sound.

Maybe at the beginning of each week you could send a message saying what you worked on last week, what you finished, what you plan to work on this week and expected completion dates.

“A) it's hard to define "done". nothing is ever really done, there is always ways to make something look better.” Let them define done. Take it to what you consider a reasonable level of completion and tell them you think you’re done, is there anything else on the project they think you need to do, or something like this. However after 4.5 years you should be getting at least a feel for what constitutes done, our interns only work with us 6 months and those that are any good usually can do this before they leave.

“B) There is nothing else on my desk and so I can only believe there's no work to be done.” Seriously, you wait until they hand you something, do you expect them to wrap it for you and say pretty please too? Be proactive, when you’re getting near the end of something let them know so they can start getting you your next job. Again, our interns usually learn this long before the 6 months is up.

There was a similar post a while back, take a look.

Sorry if some of my and others advice sounds harsh, I know I’ve been on the receiving end a couple of times however, while to this day I think some of the posters were over the top there were grains of truth in there which made me take a look at myself.

It doesn’t sound like your problems will be switched simply by changing employers or careers. If you want a job where you’re explicitly handed work all gift wrapped etc then don’t expect to get paid as much.

If you have that much free time do you want some of my excess work to do;-).


KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[EddyC]

I worked in a place that acted similarly. I would run out of work, I would tell them about it, they would try to give me something eventually, they would have me charge my downtime to some active job, then come timesheet time they would be angry at me for charging the active job that I didn't work on (that they told me to charge). I never could understand why they were angry at me for not being busy, when it was their responsibility to keep the firm busy. Some folks are not only poor engineers, poor managers, but just plain old bad human beings.

 

[jeffcivil2]

I may not deserve the recognition of a more experienced person, but I do feel like I deserve respect for what I have accomplished, especially in a country lacking these skills. And especially given that I could have instead coasted through adolescence like everyone else instead of studying. It's just very disheartening to choose one of the hardest paths in life and my reward is a couple of A holes who are bent out to "put me in my place."

Their attitude tells me that they are simply trying to get as much possible out of me as they can. From a business standpoint, that's fair because I'm paid quite well. However I feel like I don't really need that type of influence to be a productive employee. If I am not trusted to handle multiple projects at once which require my own judgment without having to constantly ask for work, then It should be obvious to you that the bosses want to control every aspect of every single project, and they want it done their way.

This is a very controlled environment... I'm not allowed to go to meetings or participate in any of the big thinking (nor is anyone else in the company besides them). My only conclusion is that when they were my age maybe they didn't know as much? Or maybe they want to give the client the best service they can. I just think it's a bad way of running a company. P.S., they don't disclose company profits or anything.. they keep that a secret.

It's easy to say I need to be more communicative, but you have to understand how unapproachable these people are and how difficult it would be for them they are so OLD and think they know everything and for a youngin like myself to ask them to change way would be a bad scene.

I'm thinking i'm in a sweat job... Seriously. This is a high-paying firm, but you really have to suffer.

 

[Atomic25]

I still think you need to saddle up and assert yourself. At least make an honest effort to create an environment that lets you grow. If not, then you have a legit reason to leave.

These guys are NOT going to give responsibility to anyone who appears non-confident, so if you do nothing its not going to improve.

Try to not let yourself quit just to get back at these guys. Do what's right for your career.

 

[melone]

Do you have any culpability in the situation or are you just a poor victim of "the man"?

 

[BillBirch]

Experience and maturity and the issues here.
Here are a few hard facts.
1. It is their company. There are not just bosses, they are the owners. With that comes the luxury of picking the best jobs. You are only there to help them.

2. The owners have a right to know what you are doing - it is their money.

3. With four years experience, any grading system in the world would require you to work under close supervision - look up your government's definition of engineering grades. More autonomy only kicks in after around seven.

4. "And especially given that I could have instead coasted through adolescence like everyone else instead of study..." Everone else? Spare me! Sorry, mate you're talking to the wrong crowd here. We've all gone down that path. Your degree is only an admission ticket - respect in an organisation has to be earned after that.

5. "They don't trust anyone else and are very age discriminatory..." and "It's easy to say I need to be more communicative, but you have to understand how unapproachable these people are and how difficult it would be for them they are so OLD ..." Sounds to me that you have the age discrimation problem.

6. "It's hard to define "done". nothing is ever really done, there is always ways to make something look better". This is a very telling comment that demonstrates your immaturity. Engineering is a business. Your bosses set it up to make money doing what they like or are capable of doing. At some point you must stop dicking around with a project and decide to call it finished because any further effort will not appreciably affect the product - diminishing returns. To continue tweaking, on a lump sum job would jeopardise your bosses profits; on a reimbursible project, your clients will be annoyed.

7 "P.S., they don't disclose company profits or anything.. they keep that a secret." How dare you! I presume that it is a private company, so it is none of your business. Unless, of course you need to know about the company's financial situation to make sure that you are getting paid enough.

8. "Thanks for the advice I will work on that, but for now I'm angered at the rude remarks so I can't work and plan on surfing the net for the rest of the day". This forum is entitled "How to Improve Myself to Get Ahead in My Work Forum". That attitude does not suggest self-improvement. It is also theft. If you felt that strongly about it you should have taken the afternoon off rather than drawing your salary for nothing.

 

[jmw]

...........to choose one of the hardest paths in life .......

Compared to what?

I'm a civil engineer with about 4.5 years experience.....

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[bridgebuster]

BillBirch said it well.

If your employers are a couple of obnoxious p---ks - QUIT.

Perhaps you're member of Generation Something that thinks you're entitled to whatever you want. In that case why don't you QUIT and do some other employer a favor by gracing them with your presence?

 

[corus]

When you work in a small company or team then sometimes it's expected that you'll find work and not just sit there waiting to be given work. It's being more of a team player rather than taking the role of a 'dog's body' and doing as you're told. Take a more active interest in the work that's being carried out around you and then choose or suggest work you can do. I think that's what they're expecting when they ask 'what are you working on'.

corus

 

[jut07]

Hello all, this is my first post here, but I have been lurking for quite awhile.

Perhaps I should have started a new thread, but I think this relates enough. I have found myself is a similar situation to jeffcivil2 in the fact that they dont keep me busy here. On the flip side, I have asked multiple times for more projects. I have stated repeatedly to my managers and peers that things are slow and I can take on new tasks to help out, etc. My managers have never been condescending in any way. It even came up in my review (that overall went pretty well) that I didnt do enough projects, but I had a good work attitude. It's been two months since my review and my workload has seemed to decrease! I even told them in the review that I could use more stuff to do.

I find myself spending too much time surfing the web (i.e. here) and otherwise wasting both my employer's and my own valuable time. I graduated a year ago and have been at this job almost a year exactly. Do I wait it out and see if things start coming to me? On the projects I have worked on I think I have proven myself at least enough to get more work. I dont want to be an entry level engineer my whole life and I know can't get promoted if I dont get any work. Heck, I had three times the work load and responsiblity on my co-ops.

Outside of this thread it seems like everyone says that telling your boss that you're bored is a first class ticket to no job.

I dont like to have nothing to do and it makes the day drag on forever. My attitude is incredibly down and I'm frustrated to say the least. I'm not sure how much longer I can put on the "I'm happy to be here" face. Thoughts? (Sorry for my rambling.)

 

[KENAT]

jeff & jut take a look at thread731-217601 it's more or less relevant.

Jut maybe a different thread would be best though it sounds like these 2 threads might be of interest to you. There's a difference between asking for more work and saying you're bored/not challenged. If one of our interns asks for more work we're delighted and get them more, hopefully at least some of it a bit more interesting. When our interns say they are bored/not challenged then we'll try and challenge them often they aren't actually ready for more challenging work and so we break them (figuratively not literally). Also usually saying they aren't challenged actually means they're bored of doing the fairly menial stuff that junior staff typically get given and think they should be the lead designer on the next project or something - not gonna happen, and who do they propose the more menial stuff get's given to, senior staff being paid twice as much? Proove your self on the basic stuff and in all but the most dysfunctional places you'll get your chance.

BillBirch, some good points thougth I'm not sure how correct your #3 is for all situations.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[csd72]

I agree with Kenat,

What you do when you are not busy is perhaps more important than what you do when you are busy.

 

[jut07]

KENAT,

Thanks for your reply, and I've already browsed through the other thread you mentioned. I posted here since I dont want to know what people are doing to kill their time. I more or less want to understand how I should handle my management.

I agree with you about how I words that I choose (between "bored" and "wanting more work") can make a BIG difference. I almost think that I should use the word bored, and hope that they do bury me. I do my best work under pressure and the day FLIES.

I understand I have to earn my stripes, but I'm not even getting the "make these copies" tasks. I'm getting the "we'll get you something in a minute" tasks.

After reading this thread, I realized I was probaby mostly to blame, but I maintain that management hasn't held up their end either. I was promised hands-on training and expereince on a weekly if not daily occurance from day 1. A year later, I have nothing more than a book knowledge of our products (even the ones I manage!). I have even asked to run tests in our lab to familiarize myself with assembly and operation and was simply told to look up the assembly drawings and read about the operating parameters instead (which are not even close, but thats another thread).

I defintely think many of you are older/wiser/smarter/more mature than I. I just hope that I have conveyed the fact that I have asked for more work and I seem to be getting no where. (Also, how often should I ask? Daily, weekly, twice-daily?) Advice please and thank you!