Have been in corporate land - how to get out? 3

[deweyusa]

I've been at a huge corporation for about 8 years now. I have watched a friend who started when I did grow his career to one where he travels the world as a very respected energy conservation engineer, with a PE. At last check, he makes somewhere around $200K/yr. Now, I know it never helps our self confidence when we compare to others, but it has concerned me for a long time that he seems to have built his reputation and identity as a very technically proficient expert. I, on the other hand, feel that from day 1 here, my technical skills have atrophied, as I knew they weren't being used, however, I stayed because at first I was getting stable, then the economy tanked.

Now, what seemed a good stable thing now feels like a trap that has used me up, and I'm afraid I won't get out. On the other hand, I have other friends who work for local firms who I think do similarly to me as far as pay, and yet I hear constant stories of their having to work 60+ hours a week (over 40 is highly rare for me).

So I don't know what to think, however, I think I would like to be known like that first friend - for a technical skill, that is transferable somewhere else. I've tried to begin freelancing, but am having a hard time competing with India/Pakistan/China for the kinds of jobs I'm offering (PCB design mainly - something I always wanted to do, but couldn't find a career in here in the US).

Am I being stupid to want to leave this? I have great benefits (health care, 401K, pension, better than average pay). I just don't feel like a "real" engineer here. I don't have any knowledge I own that I can take with me anywhere else. If I lose this job, I fear that I'll be totally irrelevant.

Thanks for any advice.
-D

 

[IRstuff]

You don't seem to want to take risks, from what I can tell, so seems to me that you've answered your question.

Until your discontent becomes overwhelming, or you are forced to, you are unlikely to change.

TTFN
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[FixedEarth]

You need to have a plan that will get you a collection of skills in X number of years. First, I would find a senior engineer who is doing now what you want to do 8 years from now. Next, you need to work for a firm that does PCB design, even if that means taking a pay cut, commuting farther and working longer hours. While being emloyed at this new firm, take additional technical workshops yearly and absorb as much as possible.

Then you need to see what skills the company VP or President has that you need to acquire. This may be marketing, public speaking, finance or human resources/social skills. Acquire those skills over time. Earn your P.E. license. You will then arrive one day at having technical, business and leadership skills. That day you can command high pay/travel position or you can start your own top notch consulting firm.

The last 8 years, your company planned your career. You really didn't have a choice. Next 8 years you can pick your destination. Good luck.

 

[deweyusa]

Thanks for that perspective. I should elaborate. I did cultivate and get an offer recently from a smaller engineering firm, but saw the workload would be huge, for similar pay to what I have now. Growth would be good, but not in exchange for burnout. (It seems you either rust out or burn out). I don't have a problem working hard as long as I know it's going to take me somewhere. I guess I'm wondering what some disciplines are I can go that would

a) allow me to expand technically and
b) would allow for growth in both career and income

and that would potentially offer more challenge than the corporate environment. I'm an EE without a PE.

In case you think I'm whining, I'm not. I am grateful for the chance to have worked here and experienced what I have. However, I find there are few skills I can quantitatively say I've gained. I know there are lots of people and communication skills I would take with me, but I can't say the same for the technical, and that is what concerns me.

 

[deweyusa]

OOps, thanks FixedEarth for the plan! That last reply was to IRStuff, which I submitted after you replied. Your post helps. Thank you.

 

[deweyusa]

And IRStuff, thanks for the feedback. I'd say you're mostly right, I don't like extra risk, and it helps me to confront that.

 

[IRstuff]

Your rather quick dismissal of this new offer on the basis of a potential "burnout," affirms my initial impressions. You don't know that you're going to burn out, given that you've not been challenged yet. Your unwillingness to consider this as a perfect opportunity to sharpen your chops and be a stepping stone to an even better future position belies your claim of desiring to improve your skills? Are you expecting them to come for free? Even if you took classes, that would add to your rather cushy schedule. You appear to lament your lack of PE, yet you've done nothing in the last 8 yrs to fix that, not even to get an EIT, apparently.

TTFN
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[deweyusa]

You are offering that analysis based on what data? I did get an FE (EIT). The dismissal of the offer was based on the fact that it was in a totally separate industry from the one I wanted to get into. I don't expect anything to come for free, but on the other hand, there is little point in suffering if there is little or no benefit. What is the point in stuffing my schedule if I can't confirm it does anything toward my goals, while simultaneously leaving my current benefits behind?

There is something to be said for shooting for something and taking a chance with little to no evidence on the hope of succeeding, but I have learned I actually get little to no satisfaction from taking a leap with that mindset when I fail. I may learn from it, but I'm not one of these people who enjoy beating my head against a wall a thousand times until I make it. I prefer to learn from the past trials of others to make better informed decisions about the future, hence why I'm posing the question here rather than pursuing a haphazard strategy of "going with whatever comes along" like most people seem to prefer.

 

[IRstuff]

"What is the point in stuffing my schedule if I can't confirm it does anything toward my goals"

You continue to come up with reasons to not do something unless you're guaranteed a certain result. Life doesn't work that way, so you have to suck up the risk, or not, in which case, you will end your career in a job that you appear to dislike immensely. And, you'll end your career immensely unhappy, stressed out, and resentful. You can just as easily burn out in a job you despise, and you can potentially thrive on the work overload from a job you love.

I suggest you read a book called Johnny Bunko:

http://www.danpink.com/books/johnny-bunko

The gist of the book is that there is no "grand plan" that you can embark upon and be certain of reaching some mythic goal. I ended college thinking I would be designing ICs for a living, but after 30+ years, I've yet to do that. And yet, I have zero regrets about the choices and turns that I've made. I love my job, and sometimes find it difficult to limit myself to 40 hours of work.

TTFN
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[ornerynorsk]

From the viewpoint of someone who actually is not a real engineer (me), it has been my experience that spending an inordinate amount of time lost in comparisons and fussing and fretting over what others have accomplished, how much they are paid, and what a great company they work for is very counterproductive, and the resulting bitterness can seriously damage your work ethic and emotional well-being. The grass is rarely greener "over there". Life is a journey, and it may sometimes appear that all who walk the same path should have similar experiences, but this couldn't be further from the truth. Everyone must walk their own path, and not to beat dead horses or get into trouble with the cliche police, but you are the greatest motive force in your own life. If you want change, it is you who is best able to effect it. "Greatness" or "importance" is purely subjective. Strive to be the best at what it is that you do, and you may be surprised at other opportunities or responsibilities that come along. If attitude has placed you in a position of lowly servitude (in your own mind) then only your attitude can prevent you from being relegated to that prison indefinitely.
There is much you cannot control, but there is much that you can. Barriers and obstacles are often self-imposed. Bottom line, you have to do something that you love, otherwise you just have to go to work everyday. Just my 2 cents.

It is better to have enough ideas for some of them to be wrong, than to be always right by having no ideas at all.

 

[rterickson]

The first time I changed jobs was eight years out of college. Having the PE made it a fairly lucrative move for me.

Is there anything preventing you from pursuing your PE now?

 

[Ron]

IRstuff has pretty much nailed it! You are unwilling to assume risk to achieve anything. Not practicable.

I've been in exactly your position...large corporation...yada yada. I was a little different in that I had a P.E. and a responsible, lucrative position of responsibility in said corporation (VP, Senior Consultant)...but if you want to succeed, you have to risk failure!

 

[jpankask]

"I prefer to learn from the past trials of others to make better informed decisions about the future, hence why I'm posing the question here rather than pursuing a haphazard strategy of "going with whatever comes along" like most people seem to prefer."

The problem here is that no one has been in the exact same situation and nobody else on here is you. What one of us might do, did do or won't do may be completely different from you...and with likely different results and satisfaction of the outcome. I have a friend who just left his stable, well-paying job to spend the better part of a year backpacking and camping throughout the nations national parks. Would I love to be able to do that? Yes. Can I feed my family with that? No. Are you willing to risk your stability for possibly something better...maybe no job at all? Only you can really answer that. Good luck with your decision and keep us posted.

 

[brandonbw]

Before I started my own company, I was always eager to go to the next place that would help me learn more. I interviewed a lot. Even was about to jump ship from my specialty, grading, to a structural job. Just so i could understand more from that perspective. I wouldn't hesitate to get out of my field to try something new just to see how the other guys do it. At one point I was trying to work under a developer as their right hand person working for nearly minimum wage. My point is that if the other job is still in your field but different, you may learn a lot. The engineers who are useful are those who can look at a problem from many points of views. Nothing is known at the end.

Any ideas what your friend did differently than yourself to get to that position you want?

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer

http://bwengr.com

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http://bwstructuralengineer.com

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http://bwcivilengineer.com

 

[DHambley]

Deweyusa, You said your specialty is PC board design. I know of several small firms locally who charge $65 and upwards for PCB layout. One local firm charges $125. They all do work for specialty industries which Indians and Chinese are incapable of. Advertise. Focus on your specialty, learn more after hours, and advertise.

 

[bigTomHanks]

For every person who tries to achieve what your friend has achieved there are several who are where you are or worse. It takes a lot of luck to get to that position and many who have tried only end up looking back at how much time they wasted chasing a dog they could never catch. There are very few of those golden jobs and most go to people for reasons that have nothing to do with how smart or hard working they are. Honestly it sounds like you have done pretty well by limiting your hours while staying gainfully employed. Also put yourself in your friends shoes. Does he have any realistic career advancement from his current position? What if he gets burnt out and longs to do something else but can never break free because of the high salary he has? Seems like he has done well but also limited his mobility. I personally would rather have a "mediocre" career working in many different industries than becoming an expert in one but that is me and I personally bore after a while on any particular thing.

 

[deweyusa]

Thank you all for such great feedback. I have done a lot of internal searching, and realize I may have some obstacles to overcome internally. I have been down the path of pitying myself for not taking different roads, and know that it leads only to more suffering. I think my main challenge at work is the ambiguity in a corporate environment about where we're heading/what's "important", and how it changes so often, all based on so little actual data and observation leads me to question the meaning of all of it. Couple that with lax demand, unmeasurable goals (I know, some of you might think that is a blessing, believe me it's not), and I often start to wonder if I could be doing better elsewhere. I definitely know that the people who get promoted and/or get to places others dream of seem to have a certain skill-set or attitude apart from their education and even experience...the friend in the original post is very good at self-advertising, something I have a hard time with, as I often feel fake when puffing up my own chest.

For a follow-up, if anyone is still reading this thread, could I ask for advice as to 1) some good ways to advertise myself if I were to attempt to be a freelancer, and 2) some good ways to advertise myself to prospective new companies? My ultimate goal would be to get out of this environment into a more "traditional" (a.k.a. non-corporate) company, and move on to my own freelancing in my spare time, assuming the new "regular" job doesn't turn out to be really great.

Also, as for the PE, I know at my company, it doesn't mean anything, although we have thousands of engineers. I notice quite a few people on this forum seem to have them and advocate getting one. From my experience, I have a few friends, other than the one mentioned in my first post, who all said they went and got one and it didn't seem to help them, as in they didn't get a pay increase and weren't offered any higher-responsibility assignments. I'm assuming this is the old phenomenon of your credentials usually being perceived better by your next employer than by your current one.

 

[IRstuff]

PEs primarily are required for public safety; there may be an industrial exemption covering your particular company. We have one PE at our company with about 60 engineers of various disciplines; he's never needed to use or advertise his PE status. If you go off on your own, then getting a PE is probably prudent, if for no other reason than to make sure some disgruntled person doesn't rat you out for not having a license. So, before you advertise your wares, figure out what the PE laws are like in your state, and what you might need to comply with them.

TTFN
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[jpankask]

Most companies that employ engineers fall under the industrial exemption that most, if not all, states have. Engineers performing work for that company are not required to have a PE license, nor is the company required to be registered with the state. For that reason, those companies have neither the motivation, nor a particular reason to provide incentive or increased pay for those with a PE license. However, for every state that I am familiar with, for you to offer engineering services as a contractor/consultant engineer will require you to have a PE license. There are those who offer such services without a license, maybe even for years/decades but if the state board finds out you'll likely be barred from performing such services in the state again and likely fined. It has nothing to do with being disgruntled, it's usually the law.

 

[Mr168]

Have you made any effort to improve your position within your present corporation? Just because a company is full of drones doesn't mean you have to be one. Don't be afraid to make some waves every now and again, be it asking for reassignment, increased responsibilities, etc. If you're looking to move on anyways, what have you got to lose?

Take a look around, and you'll probably see a handful of individuals who are in positions that would typically warrant someone 10-15 years their senior. Ask yourself - what did they do to get there? You can bet they probably ruffled a few feathers along the way, actively pursued increased levels of responsibility, and maybe even blew a few wisps of smoke every now and then to stage the mood...