Hello All, Forgive me if this ha 1

[Travis Roberts]

Hello All,

Forgive me if this has been asked before. Can anyone tell me the "rules" regarding doing a change-order on a project that was engineered by a different engineer? I have a guy that hasn't been able to get a hold of his engineer, and he wants me to sign off on a few changes. I tried a couple of times by phone myself to reach his engineer, but his voicemail was full and I emailed him several days ago and have gotten no reply.

The changes are relatively minor. He wants to thicken the slab from 4" to 6", use rebar for the reinforcement instead of woven wire mesh and use post-pour holdowns/foundation bolts instead of the cast-in-place originally specified.

I've thought about the liability of getting involved, but am mostly worried about the legality of it. Any thoughts? Thank you.

 

[IRstuff]

"responsible charge" should answer your question

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[LittleInch]

What are your roles and are you different companies between you and the "guy"?

But sounds to me like something the next person up the chain needs to sort out if you and this other engineer are on the same level.

You would normally need to be assigned to that project and then take on responsibility for the whole thing.

I personally wouldn't sign it off without authorisation from the person above this missing engineer - Is he dead or left or gone on holiday?

Trying to help and access the engineer is one thing, signing off design changes something completely different. IMHO.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[dik]

I'm a little confused here (I often am)... a Change Order is a contractual means of changing an item in a Contract. It is generally issued by one of the parties involved with creating the Contract Documents. It is the document that binds a Contemplated Change Order or Notice of Change into the Contract.

Unless the new Work has an engineering requirement, that is the responsibility of the Contractor, the engineering is usually included with the proposed change. If the Contractor has to provide the engineering, then the Contractor 'owns' the changes, else the EOR still does. The EOR may still be 'on the hook' for the Contractor's work; it can get real fuzzy.

If you are providing the engineering for a change to a project that was done by someone else, it depends on the jurisdiction of the project and the type of project. Not often, but in some jurisdictions you take 'ownership' of the entire project if you make changes. Generally you are responsible for only the changes.

If the original EOR changed the slab design, then he's responsible. If a different engineer made the changes, then he accepts ownership. If you implememt the changes, acting as directed, you are not likely responsible, and that responsibility is generally dependent on your technical skills. I'm wondering why another engineer might be making changes to a project, unless the original EOR was unavailable. This assumes he was acting on behalf of the Owner. That's the part that is a little confusing.

Throw a lawyer into the mix, and you can get some interesting outcomes.



So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[Travis Roberts]

Hello All, Thank you to those who have replied so far.... sorry for the lack of clarity in my original post.

THe other engineer and myself are completely unrelated. I work for myself ( and by myself) and do engineering of houses and small structures. The other engineer I believe is also self-employed and works by himself.

The project is small/medium project, a 40' x 80' storage enclosement.

When I say "change order" what I meant was things that the client wants to do that aren't exactly what the plans call for.

The other engineer is alive, but from what I was told and from my own attempts to reach him, he is difficult to track down.

Most of me doesn't even want to get involved, as I have other projects I could do that aren't as "weird". But it's hard telling people "No."

From what I'm reading here, it sounds like there is a good chance I'd be on the hook for the whole building even if I only sign off on something like thickening the slab.

I appreciate everyone's time in answering so far. Thank you very much and have a nice evening.

 

[Travis Roberts]

Right now , I think I will not do anything until I talk to the other Engineer.... but any additional input is appreciated

I'm also thinking of telling the guy that he can turn the original engineer in to the engineers board perhaps....

 

[Eric C.]

Do not get involved. The other engineer is the EOR with the responsibility for the design.
Some advice for your "guy"... if he can't get in touch with the EOR build what was designed and move on.

 

[LittleInch]

Well there's nothing to stop you giving the "guy" a price for doing the mod and taking over the design. If the rest of the design is good and well documented a 40' x 80' building or structure should only be half a day maybe to review and accept as well as the changes.

If the guy doesn't want to pay then move on.

Just explain the issue to the client. His money.

It sounds like he making it better/ stronger but the devil is in the detail I suppose.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[bimr]

Your failure to first discuss the situation with the prior Engineer before making the changes to the work will be considered to be unethical. While engineers sometimes experience these pressures due to time, financial, and other constraints, a professional engineer must act ethically, resist such demands, and act in a manner consistent with the NSPE Code of Ethics.

Link

 

[LittleInch]

Bimr,

Did you read the whole thread? The OP is doing no such thing. Some mysterious "guy" has approached him to do the work, but he hasn't done it yet. He can't get hold of the original engineer.

Perhaps you meant "would be"??

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[bimr]

The only difference between will be and would be is the verb tense. Will is used when speaking of future times and would is used when you are describing the past and the hypothetical future. Both versions of the verb tense can be appropriate depending on the way it is used.

 

[phamENG]

If you genuinely can't reach the other engineer because he/she is avoiding phone calls, dodging correspondence, or otherwise ignoring you and his/her client, make sure you document your attempts (emails, phone records, etc.) and you should be able to beat an ethics complaint pretty easily.

But to agree to make the change, I would require that I get to redesign the entire structure. I may leave much of it the same, but only after I've analyzed it and confirmed that it's good. Then I'll show it on my own drawings.

 

[dik]

A little confused, perhaps... is this a project under construction based on drawings prepared by an original EOR that the owner wants to make improvements to? Why does not the original engineer want to be involved?

I've never been involved in modifying a project that was under construction. It should be easy, but you will likely take ownership of the entire project... interesting legal question and depends on earlier agreements. Nothing unethical about it unless maybe there are financial issues between the owner and the original EOR. In some jurisdictions that can be an issue.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[Ron]

dik is correct. You will have to take ownership of the project. Your state board likely has a procedure for assuming a project from another engineer. It can get expensive as you are typically required to review their entire design, validate it and take if from there under your banner.

 

[dik]

Thanks Ron, thought that would be the case. It gets a little ocmplicated in some jurisdictions where you are required to take ownership of a project that has beem modified, and I think this depends on the degree of modification, too.

So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[NOLAscience]

I agree with the consensus of the engineers in the most recent replies above, in general, but I'll just say that changing the anchor bolts concerns me the most. The owner ("guy") is trying to save money on the construction, and is probably being asked by the contractor to make the change. When he finds out how much your engineering fees would be to reanalyze the entire building, he'll tell the contractor to embed the anchor bolts as designed.

 

[Travis Roberts]

Hi Everybody.... thank you for the replies..... I have decided to not get involved with the project. Some things just aren't worth it. Thank you very much for your opinions and insights, they were appreciated