Hello, My name is Richard Burke 1

[Richard Burke]

Hello,

My name is Richard Burke and I work as a design engineer for a valve manufacturing company. I'm interested in learning about hydrogen embrittlement in stainless metals and if anyone can share information or a lead to information, I will share or if the information I share to you metal experts isn't of any value, I would be willing to pay for information. I'm here for information but am willing to be open and honest so we all benefit.

Can anyone guide me to information (or private information for me to purchase) in regard to hydrogen embrittlement or the effects long term hydrogen exposure at atmospheric or in pressure or vacuum and ambient temperatures or other on any materials, please? I am aware that 316 stainless steel treated to NACE MRO175 is an answer but how satisfactory this is unknown to me. We (colleague) are speaking to NACE (National Association of Corrosion Engineers) and will share our findings if anyone is interested. The reason for the question posed is to develop a range of valves suitable for hydrogen control.

Best regards,
Richard

 

[davefitz]

Richard,

My guess is that you would need to hire an experienced and formally trained metallurgist for a few days. Alternatively you can license some design guidelines and practices from another major company that has a metallurgist on staff. One cannot design, build and warrant a critical piece of equipment based on reading a few reports recommended by online comments.

Hydrogen embrittlement has been well reported over the years, and a basic understanding can be had from reviewing metllurgical texts and tech papers from conferences. Having said that , nothing beats experience in exactly the same application , with failures analyzed by a competent metallurgist. I think going it on your own and sellng the product to a growing industry may be inserting a point of failure into the piping system.

Hydrogen has unique safety issues beyond hydrogen embrittlement of stainless steel. Being the smallest of all molecules, it easily leaks out thru gaskets , bolting, and microcracks. Once leaked into the atmosphere , it immediately ignites due to its very low activation energy , and the flame is invisible to the naked eye. NASA has some good safety guidleines on its use.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

 

[EdStainless]

There is a ton of info out there. Almost every refinery is making high temp hydrogen generation.
In general the impact of hydrogen is related to the crystal structure, this is why austenitic alloys are commonly used. But you also have to consider corrosion resistance/internal cleanliness/mechanical properties and so on.


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P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

 

[Compositepro]

You may find this video on hydrogen embrittlement to be of interest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wjz8eh3uxkU

 

[MJCronin]

Just thinking here ..... my two cents worth

The hydrogen discussions, limitations and issues mentioned here are particularly relevant to the grand plans that are being formulated about a "new hydrogen economy".

Hydrogen is being seriously considered as the sweeping "new green fuel" of the future and proclaimed as the preferred media for energy storage..... These statements mostly come from the incompetent

Wisely, davefitz notes:

Hydrogen has unique safety issues beyond hydrogen embrittlement of stainless steel. Being the smallest of all molecules, it easily leaks out thru gaskets , bolting, and microcracks. Once leaked into the atmosphere , it immediately ignites due to its very low activation energy , and the flame is invisible to the naked eye. NASA has some good safety guidleines on its use.

Hydrogen is dangerous and difficult to handle stuff ...... This is science and NOT opinion ....

We cannot let attorneys, MBAs and others without technical backgrounds bellow from balconies about there is ANY easy and cheap single solution to our energy problems ...

just my 2 cents .....

MJCronin
Sr. Process Engineer

 

[arunmrao]

ASM has several books and online contents on Hydrogen embrittlement. Please come back with any specific queries and you will get a response

 

[EdStainless]

Once someone makes the H2 it is actually fairly easy to handle. Yes, you plumbing and fittings all need to be real good, but that isn't difficult. Even bulk liquid H2 is not a real issue. When it leaks it dissipates quickly. Much easier to handle than LOX.

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P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed

 

[davefitz]

As I recall, in addition to the hydrogen explosions at NASA rocket fuel plants, there have also been several explosions at large power plants that use hydrogen cooled generators. The GE guidelines for hydrogen piping are practical , and include the materials allowed for piping and valves. NASA has also published similar guidelines, but the most thorough is likely to be found in the chemical industry, where H2 is used to generate NH3 ammonia and similar applications.

IN the case of valves, all the parts washed by the hydrogen need to be reviewed for material suitability, including body, bonnet,stem, packing, bolting, gaskets, and weld details. Valves should be located at the highest point in the piping system, since they are the most likely leakage path , and the resulting invisible flames would fry any piping that was located above them.

NASA guidelines prohibit running hydrogen piping underground, but it can be routed in vented trenches. Underground H2 leaks will always find their way into unpressurized drain lines , leading to hydrogen accumulations in adjacent buildings, and a surprising BOOM when the toilet is flushed. Combined cycle power plants often run the hydrogen piping underground, contrary to NASA guidelines, but double walled ( vented annular space) pipe runs are needed if the piping is routed close to unpressurized drains, under buildings, or near electrical ducts. In my opinion, the most likely potential for hydrogen accidents at these plants is corrosion of the carbon steel hydrogen UG piping, if the galvanic corrosion systems are not maintained properly.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

 

[Dhurjati Sen]

Your question is too general Mr. Richard. In case of specifics, we could help you offline.

DHURJATI SEN

 

[EdStainless]

We had an explosion in a bright annealing furnace, it wasn't as big of a deal as a gas explosion inside a direct natural gas fired furnace.
Temperature is a big deal with hydrogen service because of its rapid diffusion into many metals. You really need expert help with this situation.

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P.E. Metallurgy, consulting work welcomed