help from superiors (or the lack of) 2

[bjb]

I am wondering how many engineers at the beginning to middle stages of their careers actually receive effective help from their superiors.

I have 10 years of experience in structural engineering, and my boss is about the same age as me, but has a more years of experience in structures. Yet, he is unable to offer helpful advise of a technical nature, the usual reply being "do what you think is best". Fortunately, before woring at my current firm I worked for someone very knowledgeable who taught me lots, and helped me to be able to work independently to try to solve problems. However, he was always there if I needed help.

Now that is not the case, and I feel like a one-man show, and am very fustrated that my superior is unable to offer technical guidance to me. This website is extremely helpful to me, but is not a substitute to working under experienced and knowledgeable engineers. My boss seems happy to just "manage" things, and doesn't seem to have the ability to design anymore. He is also unwilling to rock the boat to fight for our group, as we are part of a mult-disciplinary firm that is dominated by civil engineers. I do have plans to look elsewhere, I am just wondering if my plight is shared by many others.

 

[epoisses]

Well.... isn't it your boss' job to manage rather than to be a technical expert? Wouldn't it be a waste of IQ to have a technical expert manage conflicting requests for holidays, write speeches for his employees when they have their X years anniversary with the company, conduct performance reviews and other non-engineering work that consumes a lot of time? Instead, look for technical support from more experienced colleagues at the same hierarchical level. (this assumes of course that they are cooperative and have not built their little empires).

Now if he's unwilling to rock the boat and fight for the group, that's a different issue because that IS his job.

 

[zdas04]

Maybe he is trying to hint that with 10 years experience it might be time to rely on your own judgement. At the end of the day, the real value of experienced engineers is a black-and-white determiniation of a really grey subject. At your point in the experience curve you are expected to consult references, investigate alternatives, evaluate standards, and then make a recommendation that can be answered with a "go" or "no go".

If I was your boss I'd probably be wondering right now if you would ever have the decisiveness that is required in an experienced engineer. The guidance that you seem to be looking for is appropriate in a 2-3 year engineer, tollerable in a 3-5 year engineer, and horribile in a 10-year engineer.

David

 

[zcp]

bjb,

Welcome to the middle of your career where YOU are the technical expert. If you have 10 years of experience, you would be the guru in some places. If you worked for me and had 10 years of experience, I would expect you to be completely autonomous, AND be the "go to guy" for the younger engineers.

It is time to face facts. If you still feel like you have more to learn, you can roll that into taking your continuing education (for PE) VERY seriously; or you can try to find a job with some old timers that won't pay as much but will give you a chance to keep learning.

When I was at the point you are, I took to TEACHING the younger engineers. As my professor in grad school told me, you never really learn something until you teach it for the first time.

ZCP

http://www.phoenix-engineer.com

 

[bjb]

I have no other more experienced colleagues. Most of the other places I have worked, the manager of the group was also a knowledgeable structural engineer who dealt with the management stuff, but was also technically competent. That's why they get more money. My father is a mechanical engineer who manages a big group, but he is also an excellent engineer, and in order to get to be a manager at his place, you have to be a good engineer. So I think to be the boss of an engineering group, it makes sense that you should also be able to function as an engineer and be able to offer technical direction to the engineers under you.

My boss is a structural engineer, not just someone with a business degree. We have an HR department that does a lot of the other stuff too. Also, he doesn't really manage me anyway, he has his jobs, I have mine, mine involve engineering design, his don't. I get all of the design jobs, and he has admitted that it's been so long since he designed something that he really can't anymore.

 

[bjb]

I am not making myself clear. I am able to function on my own, I DO consult the referneces, I DO rely on my own judgement, I DO make the technical decisions, and I DO decide how a project is going to go from an engineering standpoint. I DO work in a completely autonumous way, and I DO NOT need hand holding, nor do I want any. However, with 10 years of experience you do not know everything. What I am apparently unsuccessfuly trying to express is that I think the leader of a group of engineers should be the most experienced, and also be a resource for the engineers under him/her for those times when they do need advice. Being a confident knowledgeable engineer does NOT mean that you never need to ask someone for their opinion. If you feel that way you are arrogant and dangerous.

zdas04 and zcp, occaisionaly asking your boss for his opinion does not mean that you are indecisive or need hand holding. IS that how you treat engineers under you? At 10 years of experience, you should know a lot and be able to function at a high level, and I can do both of things, and do them damn well. My point about guidance is that my immediate superior should be able to provide guidance. If he had to provide guidance for every single engineernig decision, you're right, that would mean that there is something wrong with my ability to be an effective engineer.

 

[bjb]

As a follow up to zcp: I am a PE, in 2 states. And yes, I do feel like I need to learn more, there is no way that any engineer can know all there is to know. Your reply implies that you feel that you don't need to learn anymore, which is incredible to me. If that's how you really feel you are kidding yourself.

 

[zdas04]

bjb,
Your boss's skills and/or mentoring activities are just not your choice, his supervisors put him there and as long as you stay he's what you have. There is no "rule" that a supervisor must be able to do the jobs of his staff at least as well as they do it. I supervised a group that included Oil & Gas Landmen once and I still don't have a clue how they do what they do. If you Dad is a great engineer that is a great supervisor who mentors all of his people with loving concern, they should consider themselves fortunate (maybe), but you don't work for your Dad and every supervisor has to determine how he's going to do the job he's been assigned.

One of the things I learned when I started my consulting business is that each company has their own way to do technical and personnel tasks. Many of these techniques are good, many have room for improvement (that may never happen). The fact that your father's company requires managers to be "good engineers" isn't any assurance that they will be "good supervisors". The key is that their technique is not universal. Some of the worst supervisors that I ever had were "good engineers", but couldn't turn lose of the details and became huge bottlenecks in the process.

It sounds like your boss doesn't see his role as one of mentoring a 10 year engineer with PE's in 2 states. It may be that he can't. It may be that he won't. It may be a combination. It is his decision, not yours. The best boss I ever had was a very competent engineer who always answered technical questions with "that's what I'm paying you for". What made him good is that if problems developed in implementation he always went into "damage control" mode instead of "find the blame" mode.

David

 

[PhilBW]

There are not a lot of people who are good both technically and as a supervisor. Most people who are very competent as engineers have difficulty putting their expertise aside and taking on supervisory responsibilities. If upper management takes someone who is an extremely talented engineer and turns him into a supervisor, they aren't getting the most out of his abilities. I worked for one company who had both a management and a technical advancement track for experienced engineers. Those who weren't particularly suited to management continued to be promoted to higher levels of engineering jobs at a pay scale comperable to those promoted in management. That is the ideal situation.

I have worked for both types--those who supervise and stay away from the technical details, and those who stay involved in the technical side and do poorly on the supervisory side. Believe it or not, you have the better of the two. If you get a boss who does both functions well, you are very lucky.

 

[bjb]

zdas04, we are having a failure to communicate. I'm not looking for my boss to mentor me. I can see how my first post might have given the wrong impression, but I think I have clarified myself in my last posts. I stand by my contention that a leader of an engineering group should be able to answer technical questioins in ways other than "do whatever you think best", or "that's what I pay you for". I don't go begging help at the first instant I hit a road block or encounter a new situation. I research the problem, use my judgement, and come up with a solution. With the best boss I ever had, after going through this process I could approach him and he would give me his opinions about any outstanding questions I might have. Isn't that how this website works? Experienced engineers are asking for the opinions of other engineers all the time at eng-tips. If we all never had questions, or never felt the need to ask for the opinion of others, than why does this website exist? As for my father, he does not baby those under him, nor does he abandon them to the 4 winds, and then go to damage to control to fix problems that arise because he couldn't be bothered to answer a question a fellow engineer might have. To do so would be ineffective and dangerous.

 

[bjb]

PhilBW, don't you think that a supervisor should have at least some technical ability though?

 

[wes616]

bjb,

I suppose I am about the same place as you in the product design world (which I am learning after joining this website is quite a vaccum regarding other engineering professions), but after working at a number of companies I've found that Managers and Engineers/Designers have a completely different skillset. I actually havn't had a boss that was "good" at both ever.

I do understand the need for an ongoing "mentor" relationship. It seems that at this point in our careers, most people with our experience become either 1. too bitter or 2. to busy to perform this duty.

In the "business" world, it is about this point in career that businessmen hire "outside" lifecoachers, or mentors (that get paid). Fortunately in engineering we have another altnative. Try going to your professional org's local chapter. Many have "mentoring" programs, that match engineers from different companies. You might find that, since you don't have a need for the "day to day" mentoring, an older, more experienced engineer, would be easier to find by looking outside your company. Actually you, like me, are probablly looking for someone who can give you more "global" mentoring.

I do agree with you, that a good mentor will be a mentor for life. And everyone no matter how experienced, needs a mentor. (Hell maybe your dad wants the job.. I know mine does for me!)

Wes C.
------------------------------
In this house, we OBEY the laws of thermodynamics! - Homer Simpson

 

[kchayfie]

Maybe your questions to your boss are as vague as your original post, leaving him thinking you want babysitting as some of the other contributers did?

Senior engineers in the department I work in frequently consult with each other - the mentoring and guidance goes both ways. We frequently get the situation where a junior engineer asks advice of one senior engineer and then another senior or two overhear the conversation and chip in with other valid solutions to the problem, then all of them debate the pros and cons before the junior goes away and gets to pick who's solution seems to suit the best. In these types of discussion, the boss is just another senior engineer with experience and an opinion. And then the rest of the time, he gets to worry about the nitty gritty of management of the team...

 

[IRstuff]

To answer your question, "NO." It's desirable, but not mandatory.

I've got 27 yrs of experience and am still learning. I see that as a senior technical person, none of my managers would be expected to know more about my discipline than me.

If I need help, of whatever kind, I'm expected to find it myself. If that means that I need to get a consultant, then so be it.

TTFN

 

[bjb]

yes kchayfie, my first post is vague, as I have previosly confessed, thanks for pointing that out. My poor first post has caused this thread to go way off the track, no useful dialogue is happening, this thread should be allowed to terminate. You say senior engineers in your department frequently consult with each other. This lack in my department is what my intent was to complain about.

 

[IRstuff]

You need to stop complaining and do something. To complain here is an exercise in futility.

Tell your manager that you need to have a consultant, take classes, whatever. Set up your own peer reviews with fellow engineers. Sometimes, even the most junior engineers will ask the correct questions.

What are YOU doing to mentor your juniors?

TTFN

 

[UcfSE]

I understand your frustration bjb. I am hitting the same wall, though I have about 3.5 years experience. It's very frustrating when you don't know how to do something and have to spend hours researching an answer instead of being able to obtain a 30-minute explanation. Not all questions are questions that can be "looked-up". If I have a strange connection, or unusual detail, I probably can't find the best answer in a book. So where do you turn? Senior engineers should be able to answer these questions or at least provide a better answer than "I don't know". I have never had a mentor engineer and at this point I don't think I need one. It would be nice to be able to turn to the more experienced engineers at the company and get some help instead of wasting hours of the company's time and money, not to mention the client's.

 

[sns777]

Unlike some of the other posters, I understand what you are asking. In a perfect world it would be nice to be able to have a supervisor or other senior engineer(s) to depend on to help you solve the 5% or so work problems that you could use some help on. In some cases, senior engineers or supervisors are privy to information that you may not have, such as historical information or company/client information that you do not have. Also I find a "fresh set of eyes" can often see solutions that I haven't thought of. I think your situation ("one-man show") is probably common among engineers though. You may feel like you are "designing the world" and your supervisors really have "no clue" what you are doing. It can be a lonely job but I think that is the way it is sometimes.

That said, this is not a perfect world. Most of the time the supervisors are in up to their neck solving their own problems. "Two heads ARE better than one", but the fast pace and competition of business doesn't always allow the luxury of paying "two heads" for solving one problem. Therefore you may be on your own. I am fortunate in that my supervisors are engineers AND supervisors, are very smart, and do not answer with "figure it out on your own" but they are VERY busy.

 

[SomptingGuy]

My boss has a few (not many) years on me and is the boss because he's better at boss stuff (planning, big-picture, etc). However, I still ask him technical questions and he asks them of me too. I think that after 10 years in a job (5 more like!) this should be the norm.

 

[PhilBW]

PhilBW, don't you think that a supervisor should have at least some technical ability though?

bjb:

I think it is very important for a supervisor to have quite a bit of technical ability. In fact, I would prefer a supervisor who excels both technically and manigerially. However, I would rather have a supervisor who is an excellent manager and leader with only fair technical ability than a supervisor who is outstanding technically but only fair as a manager and leader.

I can relate to your frustration because I am in a similar situation. The Sr. Engineer who is supposed to be my go to guy won't take the time to teach me anything. If I go to him with a question, he will try to take over and work out the problem for me. That is why I frequently visit these forums. I avoid using him as much as possible.

Phil