Help me make a decision on a new machine

[tomt2]

I am looking at buying 2 new 700T-800T molding machines with new robots. I have a few choices that I would like to get opinions on. They are in order of what I like the best based on operator interface and percieved quality. I added the cost (with options) to see how they stack up. As far as energy savings go, Mitsubishi is best ($8,800 per year)followed by Haitian ($7,580), Husky ($5,550) and Nissei ($4,720). I love the Nissei but the energy savings isn't anywhere near the others. The Husky is great but it might be more than what we need, too. Our parts are pretty simple, mostly Polypro. Cycle times are usually at least 50 sec. At this point I just need to make a recommendation and let my management decide how much they are willing to spend.

1. Husky Hyelectric $432,22
2. Nissei hydraulic $346,700
3. Mitsubishi electric toggle $435,400
4. Haitian servo hydraulic toggle $252,600

What do you think? If I go by just intial cost verses energy and cycle time savings I get (in order): Haitian, Mitsubishi, Husky, and Nissei. The only one I have run for an extended period of time was a Husky. It was a great machine but there are downsides. Parts are very expensive and I am not sure of their stability as a Molding machine company. Nissei seems like a very stable company. Mitsubishi will be no longer holding their machines in US warehouses. You will have to order them from Japan. Haitian seems to be doing well but rather new to the US. The stability of the company is a concern because I want to be able to order parts from a US warehouse quickly and get service quickly if needed.

 

[Pud]

Popular large machines in Europe are none of the above.

The "Big Three" are:

Battenfeld (Now part of Wittman automation so a deal with robot might on. I know other moulders who but nothing else (smaller ones)

Engel - seen them, but no experience.

Krauss Maffei - fast, rugged, reliable - expensive.

I think Battenfeld/Wittman have a large USA operation - not sure about the others. With the dollar at a high and the general lack of cash for most manufacturing (i.e. Auto industry reliant) they might be worth a look and a haggle.

Cheers

Harry

http://www.tynevalleyplastics.co.uk

 

[tomt2]

I have used an older battenfield in the past and an older Engel. I have also gone through the screens on a newer Engel. I am not impressed with the controller on any of the European machines I've seen. They are always more confusing than they need to be. I like a simple screen that anyone can use without having to get training. The battenfield I used was the worst because it had so many options that weren't ever used. Typing in a setup on a machine like that took some time. I have not looked at Krauss Maffei. I know they are good machines.

 

[ornerynorsk]

Look at maint issues, spare parts availability, etc. My gut reaction would be to stay away from Haitain altogether. Mitsubishi makes some pretty good stuff, you do get what you pay for. As far as the European big 3, US technicians generally find these overly cumbersome to work on and lead times for spares (anything out of the ordinary, that is) to be a problem. Just my 2 cents, only speaking from my own experience.

 

[tomt2]

Thanks for the advice!

 

[patprimmer]

The quoted power cost savings will be under a set of test conditions. How accurately will these test conditions match your moulding conditions.

If you are running long cooling times, the variations in cost savings from machine to machine will be less as all of the machines uses very little power whilst sitting idle during cooling. Also fast cycle machines lose a lot of their advantage in terms of %age effect on total cycle times if they are used for thick section and long cooling times. It really is a case of horses for courses.

Cost and speedy availability of competent service is a very important aspect of any machine as extended unscheduled down time can cause lost contracts.

For very slow cycle, simple parts, a cheap but reliable machine will suffice. Chinese machines that use known brand name controls and have a good service infrastructure can fit that bill.

You need to get power consumption differences for each machine when moulding your parts or at least something similar re shot weight, material type injection speed, hold time and pressure and cooling time.

I have a strong preference for JSW or Kawaguchi when it comes to made in Japan. I believe Nissi make a hybrid machine. Nissi are a very well constructed machine. Meki also made a very good machine, but I have not seen a new one for years. I also like Arburg as I like their control system, but they specialise in small machines.

Your figures above for the Nissi vs Mitsubishi are about $4000 per year cost savings vs $90,000 price penalty. That is 22 years pay back without counting interest on the extra $90000 of capital investment.

You could almost have 2 of the Haitians for the price of the Mitsubishi. That would give you a spare machine to use in case of breakdown. I don't seriously suggest this, but I use it as an example to emphasise perspective.




Regards
Pat
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[tomt2]

Patprimmer: How is it that you know so much about automotive technology and injection molding equipement? I only dabble in automotive. You seem to be more of an expert.
I think the JSW is a good machine too. I got a quote on that as well. The cost is pretty high ($470,000) so I think that one's out. When we first started talking about Chinese machines, upper management did not know there were US warehouses for parts and service. Our management suggested buying 3 machines and having the 3rd one sit in the corner for spare parts. Since Haitian (and others) have parts and service in the US, I am not too worried about having long downtime from broken parts. I agree the initial price is a big consideration. We typically hold onto our molding machines for 20+ years, so I would still see a payback for buying an electric machine. I also included a cycle time savings for the electric Mitsubishi that reduced the payback period to 12 years compared to our 1977 Cincinatti ram machine. The payback for the Haitian is 11 years because the cycle time savings isn't as good. I think the quality of the Mitsubishi is going to be worth the extra year of payback over the Haitian but I am worried about Mitsubishi pulling out of the US.

I talked to an UBE rep. the other day. Sounds like UBE is a very strong company and pretty well respected for large tonnage machinery. Any comments on UBE? I know they make large electrics as well. They have the patent on the ball and screw design for large electrics. They also have a very stong presence in the US.

 

[Pud]

I'm sure I read somewhere that a moulding machine uses more electricity ($$'s) over ten years than the cost of the machine. Hence, I assume the all electric vogue.

H

http://www.tynevalleyplastics.co.uk

 

[patprimmer]

Harry

I agree that might be typical, but I think that number might vary quite a lot depending on the nature of the work performed.

I expect most data is slanted toward fast cycle work as that is the bulk of the market. This application is thick section, so will be well wide of typical or average.

Regards
Pat
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[ornerynorsk]

Buying an extra machine just for spare parts??? Yikes!!! Have you calculated potential down-time to replace said spare parts when the 2 running machines break down?

 

[patprimmer]

Of course you could always use the third machine while you wait for spares.

Regards
Pat
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[tomt2]

>>>Buying an extra machine just for spare parts??? Yikes!!! Have you calculated potential down-time to replace said spare parts when the 2 running machines break down? <<<

This was just management coming up with "bright" ideas to saving money. I already got them steered away from that idea. With Haitian having parts and service in the US, I am not worried so much about not being able to get parts.

Any thoughts on UBE's? Anyone like/hate them?

 

[patprimmer]

I have used Ube nylon which was a good product, but I have never seen their moulding machines.

Regards
Pat
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[tomt2]

UBE started off as a coal mining company. Now they do a little of everything. UBE city in Japan is basically an area the size of a city for all the UBE facilities. I heard they have 200,000 employees.