HELP on an stamping issue 2

[dstan02]

I need a clarification on putting my PE stamp on certain projects.
My license is in another state in which I live, however, is it not true that I may stamp a FEDERAL project, such as on a military base, no matter what state my PE is in ?
In other words, I have a Wisconsin PE, live and work in North Carolina, and am doing projects on Ft Bragg in NC. I should be able to "seal" the project with my Wisconsin stamp as it is a FEDERAL project correct ?

 

[zdas04]

By "gas" I mean "natural gas", not much transportation fuel tax there.

David

 

[DTGT2002]

Two questions:

What is stated in the project specifications and will the NC board persue you for practicing without a license.

Read and ask the questions to the parties at hand and move forward.

Do the research to find the executive director of the NC board and ask to leave a message for him or her, if not contact directly.

Good luck.

Daniel Toon

 

[Gumpmaster]

I've worked on quite a few jobs on military reservations (as well as lived on them). On base, state laws don't apply. You don't follow the state building code, you follow the UFC (I normally double check the state code to make sure nothing is particularly different, just to follow local practice). It's not state land. Engineering work at Fort Bragg is under the same jurisdiction and laws as Fort Benning. Fort Benning is effectively not "within the borders" of NC.

Let's say that your building at Fort Bragg falls down and the Army wants to sue you for it. Is the Army going to go to the state court for the suit? No, it's a federal suit under federal court. I'm not sure, but I think even personal suits fall under the UCMJ, but you may have to go to civilian court to argue that they don't have jurisdiction.

It's common practice to stamp projects on active duty bases with any of the 50 state stamps.

One issue you may run into is if you're building on annexed property that hasn't been sold to the federal government yet. I experienced a case where the land was only leased to the federal government and wasn't technically a part of the military reservation. The result is we had to follow the state laws.

Does anyone have any examples of people being reprimanded for stamping with an out of state licence on a military reservation (not indian reservation)?

 

[zdas04]

I went to a class last year put on by this state's board. We had a couple of hours from the head of the Enforcement Division. It was all examples. One of them was a building on the Air Force base in Albuquerque intended as a day care. It was completed and was given an Air Force certificate of occupancy (whatever they call it). One of the Moms (wife of an Air Force Officer) was an engineer. The first day she dropped her kid off she noticed that all the exit doors opened inwards which seems to make panic exits by pre-schoolers interesting. There was quite a few other code violations that she noted. She reported it to the Air Force, they did whatever it is that they do to the Architect and Engineer. Then the Air Force turned the case over to the appropriate New Mexico boards. The Engineer was licensed out of state and New Mexico fined him for doing Engineering without a license and turned the case over to his state who pulled his license.

I don't have any documentation of this, it wasn't included in the course handouts, the Enforcement guy just stood up there and talked about closed cases. Notice that they didn't imply that the state has jurisdiction for action against the owner (the Air Force), they did feel that they had responsibility for ensuring that designers within the state protect the safety of people.

David

 

[Gumpmaster]

Good Example,

However, I think the state of New Mexico is wrong. They don't understand that the Air Force base effectively is not within New Mexico's borders. The engineer would have had to sue the state (and maybe his home state) to prove that he didn't need a New Mexico license. That wouldn't be a fun process, but I don't see how NM would win.

Not that the engineer isn't negligent. He clearly didn't follow the UFC (which mostly just references the IBC) and maybe he deserved to have his license pulled for that alone.

 

[zdas04]

My experience with "I think the board is wrong" issues always turn out that they do in fact understand the issues better than I do.

David

 

[diarmud]

I worked for the military for over 35 years as a facilities engineer. Be careful as state laws DO generally apply to federal installations., especially where the feds have passed inspection and implementation onto their state regulators - environmental work such as stormwater, etc. Additionally, state inspectors can access federal military installations as long as it's nothing classified and they give notice - usually a day or so. OSHA also comes by from time to time.

We required PE's to follow the local and state building codes - I was the senior civilian facilities manager at an airbase.

We never hired a PE for a design job if they weren't licensed in our state . . kind of makes sense . . . they should be knowledgeable in local building loads, etc.

Read your contract and see what it says.

 

[Gumpmaster]

Diarmud,

The licensure you're mentioning is a Contract Requirement, not a federal requirement. The contracting officer can decide whatever requirements they like.

Here is an insightful question on the Idaho board website

"If I (or we) only contract our engineering services to a federal government agency here in Idaho, are we exempt from the licensure requirement?

Although the Idaho Code doesn't exempt you, since your offering engineering services here in Idaho, the courts have decided that state licensing laws cannot regulate with whom the federal government contracts.
see Leslie Miller, Inc. v. Arkansas, 352 U.S. 187, 190, 77 S.Ct. 257 (1956); having said that, if you offer your services to anyone other than the federal government, you need to be licensed."

http://supreme.justia.com/us/352/187/case.html

 

[zdas04]

Gumpmaster,
You have just provided a sterling example of why so many of us keep saying "contact the board in your state". An Idaho decision has no impact on Wyoming decisions and vice versa.

David

 

[Gumpmaster]

Yes, but the court referenced is the US Supreme Court. Does that not apply to every state?

It seems looking through some relevant case history that the State supreme courts keep trying to assert state rights in this issue (with similar licensing cases), and federal appeals courts tend to overturn them (just looking at a small slice of relevant cases).

That doesn't mean that the state courts can't rule against you, but they'll likely loose in a federal appeal.

I'm having our lawyers look into it.

I understand what you're saying zdas04, but I think what you don't understand is that the federal reservation is effectively not within the boundaries of the state. It's very similar to a foreign embassy which allowed to operate its own laws within the embassy boundaries. The home countries laws do not apply within the embassy grounds.

I very much understand the state's arguments. They want control of what goes on within their boundaries. They want the revenue from licenses. That doesn't mean that they are right.

 

[Gumpmaster]

Here's a very similar thread.

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=134447

I agree with JAE's argument. I don't think he was convinced by opposing arguements either.

 

[DTGT2002]

Alternate question. Which is the greater hassle, becoming licensed in NC or defending yourself from a cease and desist order from the state for your offers to perform engineering services?

If I put on my BS hat (the one not lined with tin foil), I might could argue that while the federal land is not governed by the state, it does fall within the boundaries of the state in question and as such, the Board of professional engineers may claim some jurisdiction.

Most of the specs I have looked at in this regard have attended to this issue. Did a page get lost in the scanner?

 

[zdas04]

Gumpmaster,
I got no skin in this game. You should do what you and your attorney think is the right level of risk for your firm. So will I. I envy you your certainty, I haven't been that certain of anything since I was 20 and that was a long time ago.

David

 

[joeiraqi]

I agree with Gumpmaster. The military installation is Federal and, as permitting authority, is allowed to determine what requirements are necessary to practice engineering. Next time you go on to a military base, read the sign by the entrance that tells you rather specifically that you are no longer in the state and that federal rules apply.

 

[JAE]

I'm not sure I'm weighing in here in a timely manner - but I've sealed LOTS of plans without a seal in the state in which a FEDERAL project resided.

For example, I've done numerous US Postal Service projects around the US an in no case was I required to seal it as a local licensed engineer. In fact, one state called me up, attempting to nail me with "marketing as an engineer" without a license. I told them that the USPS project I was working on was a federal project, on federal land, built with federal money, and managed by the federal gov't. Thus, the project wasn't technically or legally IN the state and they had no jurisdiction.

They (Nevada) called me back a few weeks later and concurred. This was also backed up by numerous attorneys for the USPS and other agencies.

On numerous military projects same thing.

Now in the case of the USPS, sometimes their projects were buildings owned by a local person and leased to the USPS. In that case a local license would be needed.

This is very common but you do see some situations where local folks don't understand that a federal project on federal land isn't IN their state.

 

[Gumpmaster]

Here's the response from the state of New Mexico:

"If the work is being done within the military perimeters and only for the military it would not require a NM licensed engineer. It is the military’s responsibility to check the engineer’s credentials qualifying him to do the work they need."





XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Licensing Manager

New Mexico State Board of Licensure for

Professional Engineers and Professional Surveyors

 

[HgTX]

Note that they still didn't say that it's the military's decision as to which credentials are required, just that it's their responsibilities to check those credentials.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[Ron]

Federal land, as JAE noted, is sovereign...not subject to state law or jurisdiction. On most federal projects, they just want to know if the engineer is properly licensed in SOME state, not necessarily the state in which the project is located.

 

[PeterStock]

Just think of the ads for doctors to work with the VA on tv lately, they can work in any VA facility with a license in any state. The same works for engineers.

Peter Stockhausen
Senior Design Analyst (Checker)
Infotech Aerospace Services

http://www.infotechpr.net

 

[diarmud]

Congress has passed some "sovereignity" from Federal to States. The best example I can think of is environmental - storm water issues, haz materials, fuel tanks, etc.

In addition, historic preservation is generally run through the state SHPO - their aproval is needed for any work on historic facilities and they are the ones who decide what is historic within the guidelines.

State agencies do have the right to inpsect most federal facilities in most cases.

I worked for the AF and state and county agencies soemtimes did no notice inspections (not often). We ran it by the JAG (lawyers), who told us it was okay. They were not allowed into classified areas unless we had time to make proper preparations.

I'd be careful when stamping storm water plans, environmental, historic preservation, etc unless I was licensed in the state. It might be smart to ask first.

Regards.