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Help re how large a reinforcement thing needs to be too not pull through a membrane

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adouglas089

Mechanical
Dec 9, 2016
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CA
Can anyone help me with this?

I need to build a wall which is two layers of polyethylene separated by 200 mm, about ten feet high and filled with water. To prevent the sheets of polyethylene from coming apart, that is to constrain them to approximately 200 mm apart, basically two big buttons- like the buttons on clothing - will be attatched top each sheet, and fishing line used to attach the buttons, piercing the membrane. The size and number of the buttons that I need is the question.

I mean, suppose I have a button every 25 centimeters. At the bottom of the wall the water pressure due to weight of the water is about 10 kPa. So there would be 630 or something newtons exerted per button, and 16 buttons per square meter per side (32 buttons both sides). Ok. The plastic is 150 microns thick. The strength of the plastic is 8 MPa (ldpe vapor barrier from home depot).

What would the diameter of the button need to be too not let the button be pulled through the plastic? (or, the plastic being pushed over it, I guess).

I cannot quite figure this out, my knowledge of the geometry and calculus is too weak.

I suppose that the degree to which the plastic stretched and Bulges forward may have some impact?

It is going to be a soundproof room, building upon the document here:
They used a nicer method to keep the panels together, but I can't do that... I need this for medical reasons and cannot afford to build a room out of concrete or anything else.
 
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A simple and inexpensive solution it to take drop-ceiling tiles, cover them with a pleasing cloth and place them on all your walls and let them hang down vertically from your ceiling. A case from the Big Box home improvement stores are less than $40USD and cover 64sqft. They will absorb the noises, and at least reduce echo. You might also want to search "studio foam" which are used in anechoic chambers, though that stuff is probably outside your budget.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of these Forums?
 
Google: noise control materials for interior walls
There are plenty of material and method choices that do not involve experimental water bags! If your noise control engineering skills are limited, then study a few good books/references, or hire a consultant, or seek a reputable product sales/service provider. There are many ways to spend time and money on a noise control project without achieving good results.

Walt
Board Certified Noise Control Engineer
 
The trouble is you need mass per unit area for good LF performance. So if he needs LF then foam or whatever won't help, unless you go the superexpensive mass loaded types. Even then their performance isn't much better than you'd predict from mass laoding, except near their designed resonances.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
what about using water beds bladders (best manufactured item I can think of that is likely to meet your requirements).

To the sound experts, would adding Water Jelly Crystals (cross-linked polyacrylamide copolymer gel) to the water improve sound damping (by creating discontinuous low stiffness structure in the water). If low frequency performance is mass based then would using a brine would be more effective?
 
"what about using water beds bladders (best manufactured item I can think of that is likely to meet your requirements)."

These items lay flat on a rigid or semi-rigid surface. Good luck trying to support a water-filled mattress on edge to form a wall!

Walt
 
The hard bit (high risk) about this project is keeping the water in reliability, no one wants to wake up with a 4" of water on the floor, getting it to stand up just requires more lumber.
 
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