High temp clamp on flow meters

[Mechanical Farmer]

Looking for recommendations for a clamp on flow meter for polymer melt. Prefer adjustable from 1" to 4" pipe size and non nuclear.

 

[LittleInch]

Define "high temperature".

 

[pierreick]

Proline Prosonic Flow P 500 ultrasonic clamp-on flowmeter

The proven sensor Prosonic Flow P can be installed close to elbows, expansions or constrictions in the pipe and still maintain the same measurement accuracy. Even measurement of abrasive, corrosive or toxic fluids is no problem for the non-invasive clamp-on device. Prosonic Flow P 500 is mounted...

www.casc.endress.com

Check with them, E&H and ask for a trial, unless they have experience with your product.

My 2 cents,

Pierre

 

[LittleInch]

The biggest issue with UT clamp on meters will be the lubricant or coupling between sensor and pipe. But probably also need to check if the fluid is able to be measured that way depending on its sound attenuation.

what have you looked at so far?

Corriolis meter is prob best, but isn't a clamp on.

 

[Mechanical Farmer]

The biggest issue with UT clamp on meters will be the lubricant or coupling between sensor and pipe. But probably also need to check if the fluid is able to be measured that way depending on its sound attenuation.

what have you looked at so far?

Corriolis meter is prob best, but isn't a clamp on.

I'm just exploring, I was looking at the E+H Pierre mentioned above but that was just based on a quick google search. We've also looked at Vega Minitrac, but no everyone is comfortable with the idea of radiation.
I've asked my instrumentation guy for suggestions. This is for a special project so I wanted to come to the table with some suggestions before approaching him.

 

[Mechanical Farmer]

Proline Prosonic Flow P 500 ultrasonic clamp-on flowmeter

The proven sensor Prosonic Flow P can be installed close to elbows, expansions or constrictions in the pipe and still maintain the same measurement accuracy. Even measurement of abrasive, corrosive or toxic fluids is no problem for the non-invasive clamp-on device. Prosonic Flow P 500 is mounted...

www.casc.endress.com

Check with them, E&H and ask for a trial, unless they have experience with your product.

My 2 cents,

Pierre

I was looking at this one. I didn't know there was the opportunity for testing. I've asked if my instrumentation guy has an account with them.

 

[danw2]

Siemens high temperature metal block sensors, rated to 230 °C (446 °F).
pg 2 https://cache.industry.siemens.com/...5/v1/sitransf_fs220_fi01_en.pdf?download=true

 

[LittleInch]

I'm just exploring, I was looking at the E+H Pierre mentioned above but that was just based on a quick google search. We've also looked at Vega Minitrac, but no everyone is comfortable with the idea of radiation.
I've asked my instrumentation guy for suggestions. This is for a special project so I wanted to come to the table with some suggestions before approaching him.

Fair enough but you need to answer the question about temperature and why you need clamp on and whether ultrasonic will work in your fluid.

 

[Mechanical Farmer]

Fair enough but you need to answer the question about temperature and why you need clamp on and whether ultrasonic will work in your fluid.

I'm not going to be able to give any quantitative data regarding process.

Clamp on because
1) It is my experience that fewer things contacting polymer melt is better.
2) I would like to be able to use the same unit on different pipe segments of different diameter.

I presume ultrasonic will work but I don't have the instrumentation background to say for certain.

 

[LittleInch]

Well temperature range at the very least. Your "high temperature" might not be mine and vice versa.

When you're talking to vendors then the first thing they'll ask is for properties of the fluid to see if works with their meter, plus velocity, density etc

 

[Mechanical Farmer]

Well temperature range at the very least. Your "high temperature" might not be mine and vice versa.

When you're talking to vendors then the first thing they'll ask is for properties of the fluid to see if works with their meter, plus velocity, density etc

Fully aware, Any vendor that I speak with will have an NDA.

I am just trying to get an idea of the direction to go in. I don't want the legal team bombarded with 20 NDA requests when there might be a select few company (like MPI) that specialize in melt instrumentation.
I assume that, as a generality, what works for one polymer melt process will be a good place to start looking.

 

[danw2]

An issue with ultrasonic clamp-on in general is whether there is documentation for a medium/material's speed of sound at various working temperatures.

Those clamp-ons that have a list of liquids to select from typically use the speed of sound for standard, 25 Deg C, conditions. Sometimes they'll have a compensating factor for water at 60 Deg C or 80 Deg C.

Whether a vendor has knowledge of your medium's sonic velocity at operating temperature might be an issue.

 

[Mechanical Farmer]

An issue with ultrasonic clamp-on in general is whether there is documentation for a medium/material's speed of sound at various working temperatures.

Those clamp-ons that have a list of liquids to select from typically use the speed of sound for standard, 25 Deg C, conditions. Sometimes they'll have a compensating factor for water at 60 Deg C or 80 Deg C.

Whether a vendor has knowledge of your medium's sonic velocity at operating temperature might be an issue.

This might not be an issue for my application.

I am trying to experimentally determine Power-Law constants (n and K) at various shear rates. I need to plot the delta P vs V dot.
As long as the Volumetric flow rate is off by a consistent factor, I should get the same curve, the slope of which would be my flow behavior index, n.

Using arbitrary numbers below to verify that this should work.

 

[georgeverghese]

I set up flow control loops on hot high viscosity bitumen lines running 180-220degC with ultrasonic clamp on FT some 10years ago - cant remember the brand name , but it was some German company - worked as intended. They offered onsite troubleshooting assistance, which was re assuring.

 

[shvet]

Is there a need in theorizing of the fluid properties? How are you going to prove those are relevant?
Why can't you provide a simple measurement of a controlled volume?

Or this is a thesis paper?

 

[Mechanical Farmer]

I set up flow control loops on hot high viscosity bitumen lines running 180-220degC with ultrasonic clamp on FT some 10years ago - cant remember the brand name , but it was some German company - worked as intended. They offered onsite troubleshooting assistance, which was re assuring.

good to know something exists that give reliable results. I googled "German flow meter manufacturer." Of course that didn't narrow down the search very much.

 

[Mechanical Farmer]

Is there a need in theorizing of the fluid properties? How are you going to prove those are relevant?
Why can't you provide a simple measurement of a controlled volume?

Or this is a thesis paper?

This is for an industrial application in a novel process. What we have currently works, but I am trying to optimize the process.

To give you the jist of what I am doing, and maybe I should have started here:

I have a shear thinning fluid and need to optimize the piping system design. To do this I need to be able to accurately determine pressure drop.
I have rheology data for the material but at the shear rates I am interested in, the data has a lot of noise. I am designing a test setup that will measure pressure drop and volumetric flow rate across a known length of pipe of known diameter. From here I can back out the power-law constants; K (Flow Consistency index) and n (Flow Behavior index), which will allow me to calculate pressure drop along different lengths of pipe.

 

[LittleInch]

If this is a test set-up where you can fix the location of the input flow and then pipe the output to other test elements, I would be very tempted by either a Coriolis meter or some sort of PD meter tbh. or just pump a defined volume and time how long it takes (simpler the better)

I don't know how the UT devices would like any flow which is laminar or non newtonian and may stick to the walls.

I realise you may have looked at those options and rejected it for some reason, but with what you're not able to tell us (even the temperature), it's not easy to second guess you I'm afraid.

 

[Mechanical Farmer]

If this is a test set-up where you can fix the location of the input flow and then pipe the output to other test elements, I would be very tempted by either a Coriolis meter or some sort of PD meter tbh. This would be a used for initial testing but would likely be used to test viability of potential new feedstocks. I am hoping to keep all wetted parts clean between use so that is why I am interested in straight through piping. Coriolis MIGHT be an option, but I don't think that PD meters would be appropriate or just pump a defined volume and time how long it takes (simpler the better) To find my n value, I need to plot a curve of values at varying flow rates and differential pressures. This is at industrial scale, controlling throughput rates at the measuring instruments would be near impossible.

I don't know how the UT devices would like any flow which is laminar or non newtonian and may stick to the walls.
UT should prefer laminar. I don't know why the pseudoplastic nature would make a difference so long as it doesn't completely attenuate the sound waves.
I do believe at larger pipe sizes I will have stagnation on the pipe walls. I'm hoping at lower pipe sizes that is not an issue. (see my other post regarding non-newtonian rat-holing)

I realise you may have looked at those options and rejected it for some reason, but with what you're not able to tell us (even the temperature), it's not easy to second guess you I'm afraid.
I can kind of explain, or at least elaborate on things as questions arise. I know it would be difficult for anyone on this forum to track down where I work and what I'm doing, but unfortunately from the other direction, anyone looking into the company could relatively easily find this forum and any process information I provided, should I do so.

 

[LittleInch]

There is a user here called "latexman" who is the most knowledgeable one I know about things like this.

Try sending him a message and ask him to chip in?