Higher Degree or Experience 7

[chestud08]

Hello,

I'm just wondering whether or not I should just go straight to work with a bachelor's or go for a master's? Is it better to work to gain more work experience than to get a master's? If employers say "master's preferred," would they still prefer bachelor's with more work experience than a master's with no experience? Does that hold true for the environmental engineering companies? Also, is it better to work and go for a PE license with a bachelor's than to get a master's?

Thank you,
j

 

[KENAT]

spongebob007

The demise of the Bachelors has been predicted for some time. In fact it's why I was originally on a Masters course back in the 90s.

I'm not saying it wont happen but it's been exaggerated/timescales set too soon.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[GregLocock]

Hard evidence (survey in The Australian's Higher Education supplement) from Australia says that a Masters does you no favours in starting salary, and a PhD is a backward step, for engineers.

What makes spongebob think differently?

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[Lion06]

There is nothing that says you need to quit work to go get a masters if you decide to work first. I am just starting a masters (after 1.5 years on the job after BS). I find myself far more knowledgable than my classmates that are doing their masters immediately after BS.
I am not saying one way is better than the other, it certainly depends on your individual circumstances. I will say this, though.... Someone who gets MS without working between will have more general knowledge than someone with BS (obviously). If you do get a MS after working you will gain much more from the classes than those who did not have any real world experience when taking them.
Being faced with some tough, real world problems and having to think through them a little on your own before being exposed to the theory is invaluable in having that knowledge actually sink in compared to someone to whom this is purely academic.
Just my 2 cents!

 

[Gymmeh]

Spongbob, I am confused because this discussion and I have read a few articles like the following:

http://www.prism-magazine.org/march00/germany.cfm

This one is a little old, 2000, but like a few I had read have said that more engineering is going toward the BS for various reasons. Main reason being, in order to reduce personal cost the engineer ends up designing/drafting/analyzing/managing/etc…which require a more broad skill set then MS.

Which is more correct, is engineering really going toward MS or BS?

 

[Twoballcane]

I agree with Mr Squarepants, that you have to be in a specialized area in order to get into jobs that may have a hard time finding somebody on the other side can do. If you can seperate your self either by degree (MS) or certificats (PE, Quality), you may have a better chance.

I kinda agree with StructuralEIT, but I beleive that it can go both ways. You can get your masters first and then practice what you learned. During that time you will get a more indept understanding of the subject. Plus, you are already in the acadamia mind set. It is a roll of the dice when you leave uni that you ever come back. Life has curve balls, before you know it, you may move on to the next phase of life.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[spongebob007]

I am speaking strictly about the situation in the United States. In other parts of the world your mileage may vary.

It also depends on what line of work you are in. I have spent most of my career in R&D and an MS is certainly a good thing to have and in some cases a requirement for the type of work I do. For me a Masters has certainly led to a better salary.

 

[MechEng2005]

In response to Spongebob...

I have about 2 years working since I got my BS. The places I have worked typically are divide between engineers with degrees and "designers" or "detailers" without degrees. I do not believe that until I start seeing a decline in designers or detailers I will be concerned about my prospects. On the contrary, it seems that the designer/detailers have an increasing demand.

Also, I do not believe that the outsourcing of engineering work will be instantaneous. When/if it does occur, everybody who currently has a BS will have a fair amount of experience and the impact will mostly be felt by new graduates.

This is just my point of view. I realize a major factor may be the specific industry, location, and size of the company. The companies I have worked for are small, and typically each item engineered is unique. Therefore, the capital cost of working with international employees is certainly more of a factor than a large company, which may make hundreds of thousands of a product from the work performed by the employees.

-- MechEng2005

 

[Lion06]

To expand on MechEng2005's post, some idunstries require a PE from a specific jurisdiction. It will be difficult for someone outside teh US to obtains and maintain a PE in the US when their work must be overseen by a PE in the jurisdiction where they are seeking registration. That is difficult to do from overseas.

 

[KENAT]

I don't always agree with StructuralEIT but this time he's right.

It is difficult for most non US types to get PE. So in areas of industry that require PE this should be kept in mind.

I know this from experience.

Also there are language, logistical and cultural issues with dealing with people from different countries as MechEng suggests.

Not to say outsourcing isn't going on but I personally think Spongebobs first post overstates it a bit.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[gwynn]

I agree with mecheng.

Local firms continually struggle to find enough people with even drafting courses, let alone experience.

In many fields, engineering degrees from places like China and India are not even recognised by the relevant professional organisations. It's typical for immigrants from such countries to be required to take a BS or an MS (most go the MS route if they can as it's shorter) before being eligible for EIT status.

The few cases I see of work done out of country are for multi-nationals who were impressed by work done in country or exceptional projects where specific expertise is required.

 

[Lion06]

gwynn-
Will a MS count toward EIT without an accredited BS degree? I don't think it will.

 

[gwynn]

It depends on the location. Some places a masters degree can be substituted for the BS requirement, but you would have to check this locally.

 

[spongebob007]

RE Outsourcing:

Most engineering jobs outside of Civil don't require a PE so that is irrelevant.

The fact that professional orginaizations may not recognize foreign degrees is also largely irrelevant in many cases. American companies give the title "engineer" to people with two year degress (or even less) all the time. Don't even get me started on that one.

The logistical issues with dealing with others in foreign countries are real. This can be a big problem with outsourcing, although the MBA types who came up with this crap don't have to worry about details like that. I used to routinely have teleconferences with India and China from my home very early in the morning or at night because that is when those folks were in the office. Since the time difference with China is 180 degrees out of phase, email correspondence had a 24 hour lag time.

Outsourcing is probably most prevalent in large private corporations that have the means to handle it. My former employer opened engineering centers in China and India. Many small companies don't have the resources to do that.

I now work for the government because my job has to be done in the US by US citizens.

But like I said before, to be immune from outsourcing you need to set yourself apart. Having a PE can do that, but really only for jobs where a PE matters.

I have been at this for nearly 14 years now and I can tell you young engineers that experience doesn't matter as much as you think-at least not to the bean counters who make the financial decisions. They don't care if the guy in India has half the experience you do. He's willing to work for $7000 a year, are you?

 

[Heckler]

I have been at this for nearly 14 years now and I can tell you young engineers that experience doesn't matter as much as you think-at least not to the bean counters who make the financial decisions. They don't care if the guy in India has half the experience you do. He's willing to work for $7000 a year, are you?

The bean counters will start caring when they get hit with law suites for piss poor engineering from that $7K/yr engineer in India that result in personal injury....ie wing falling off a plane!

I'm reviewing a 17-4 H900 SS part right now that was manufactured in Bangkok. The heat treatment cert tells me it was heat treated and the material cert tells me the part meets all requirements to be 17-4....But after 600 cycles the part's flogged and that's telling me it's not heat treated to H900.

Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SWx 2007 SP 4.0 & Pro/E 2001
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_`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

This post contains no political overtones or undertones for that matter and in no way represents the poster's political agenda.

 

[KENAT]

So if the PE issue isn't enough to convince you then...

For many aerospace/defense jobs you need to be US citizen.

Now of course this doesn't stop out sourcing of major components etc but it is a factor in foreign engineers coming here or I would think some outsourcing of design work etc.

The language, logistical and cultural issues with dealing with people from different countries are a major issue for some things though. I have a hard enough time dealing with field engineers from our own company in some parts of the world, let alone from another employer.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...