Hippocratic Oath 5

[Nigel]

Should professional engineers take a hippocratic oath.&nbsp;&nbsp;We have a hugh infleuence on the way society is shaped.&nbsp;&nbsp;I think all engineers should do what they do in British Columbia Canada (see FAQ).&nbsp;&nbsp;What do you think? <p>Nigel Waterhouse<br><a href=mailto:n_a_waterhouse@hotmail.com>n_a_waterhouse@hotmail.com</a><br><a href= > </a><br>A licensed aircraft mechanic and graduate engineer. Attended university in England and graduated in 1996. Currenty,living in British Columbia,Canada, working as a design engineer responsible for aircraft mods and STC's.

 

[Bedrettin]

I am an undergraduate student from Izmir/Turkey. I agree your idea. After the last earthquake in Turkey a large number of NGO's said that engineers are responsible from the casualities. And such ideas like yours have been discussed here too. But no final solution found at all.

 

[flowdude]

Nigel,<br><br>I think you should check out your local chapter of APEGGBC to find out, but when I graduated from U of Alberta, Edmonton I remember taking an oath. Plus in order to get the P. Eng designation you had to write an ethics and engineering law exam.<br><br>I do agree with you on taking an oath. Even though I now work in the States, I am still guided by the oath and obligation to serving mankind through better/safer designs. Engineers must not be out for a buck.

 

[MikeVV]

How do we, employed AND ethical engineers, convince &quot;aggresive&quot; managers that they need to also be ethical? This is a real problem in many companies. Who is truly in command? It is easy to show that an engineer, who stands in the way of &quot;progress&quot; on a project, is insubordinate.

My employer has an ethics panel but going to them might be professional suicide. Also, these issues are often in between right and wrong. The use of such panels is the key to resolving ethical issues in any event.

Each of us has to make a personal decision and act upon it. I believe that it is important to put oneself in a position that allows for significant periods of unemployment in order to stand up for what is right because the ethics panels might &quot;blow up&quot; in our faces. We also need to help each other - an individual cannot make a difference without support from others of like mind.

Professional licenses are provided by jurisdictions. The law is often on the side of an ethical engineer. Surviving the decision process however can be quite long and painful. I believe that it is up to us to evaluate a situation before taking action to avoid useless action by outsiders. We can do this by bouncing ideas off each other. This forum may very well prove to be the most valuable part of Eng-Tips.com

Mike Van Voorhis
MJVanVoorhis@CS.com

 

[RDK]

I am a Canadian engineer and thus have taken the oath of the calling of an engineer. It's refered to above.

Engineers can openly and honistly take proper renumeration for their work. (That's part of the oath). While engineering is a profession it is also a business. Therefore we must operate as an ethical and professional business.

I have and will continue to turn down work that I consider unethical. A common request is to seal drawings by others, usually some draftsman whose knowledge of design is somewhat questionable. I will usually refuse as I have to redesign his work in order to dispute why changes need to be made, the result is more work for me and the need to defend my changes. I will undertake to do a complete new design and not reference the previous work.

As an independant engineer with a practice that gives me enough ethical work, I can easly refuse the work. If my kids were starving it would be a lot harder to turn down this type of work.

Some years ago as an employee engineer, I was ordered to do something that I considered unethical by my non-engineer boss. I refused and was disciplined. I appealed the desision and the resulting investigation cost by boss his job. (He had laid me off due to &quot;lack of work&quot; and I had found a better job in the mean time. I was offered his job to return and refused.)


If all engineers would act ethically, we would not have the problem of being asked to do something unethical by those who know better. New clients of the profession would simply have to be educated and once they knew what our ethics are and that no engineer would do something unethical the problem would disappear over time. (I know a somewhat simplistic view of the world but..)

 

[johnc01]

I agree with the comments of Mike Van Voorhis and i would like to give a different perspective from another section of the industry.

While i am not an engineer,(i am Construction/QA-QC),in the oil and gas, petrochemical and heavy construction, there is here,a serious lack of business and professional ethics.

In SE asia,where i am at present,the amount of times i have had fall outs with construction people arbitraly changing things without consulting the PE or building something that is not in accordance with the design borders on the criminal.

Quality and safety is paid lip service when the project starts to slip, and anyone like myself who will put their job on the line to ensure that it is done correctly and as per the design and to make sure that the PE is consulted before changes are made is sometimes seen as stubborn/pedantic and deprimental to the project.

The amount of times i have had first and middle line managers and superintendents not knowing the requirements of what they are supposed to be constructing to is countless,the most commom comment is &quot;this is the way i have always done it&quot; Doesn,t matter that it is completely wrong,it is Ok as that is the way we have always done it!

Working for the owner as i do, i see as Mike commented, some engineers and construction people wanting to step forward but in doing so would be commiting professional suicide,and to get round the problem they have to come through myself so as its seen as if the owner is instigating it rather than them do so theirselves, so frightened are they of being fired.

If they make any decision that compromises progress they are immediately put under pressure to change it and are constantly reminded about who pays their salary.

This is not isolated to local employees, a lot of expats are caught in this trap as well. For me, and from my experience there is a serious lack of responsibility/accountability and ethics in this industry in the construction disciplines.

The level of professionalism, and the lack of professional qualifications in the actual construction discipline,(excluding the engineers )in my opinion leaves a lot to be desired and this lack of professionalism and professional qualifications i believe leads to a lack of ethics.

I am not by any means saying this apllies to all persons construction, that would be unfair but it does apply to a significant portion.It would be interesting to know if anyone has the same problems as i have encountered, and that is that all the plans and procedures are in place but never really get fully implemeted.That for me is one of the biggest problems i have faced, getting people to implement and know what they are supposed to be implementing.

I,like Mike am also am prepared for periods of unemployment.I would rather be unemployed as be employed knowing that i have helped construct something that has not been constructed in accordance with the design or requirements and that may jepordise the safety of the public at large or the personnel who have to operate the plant after we have finished constructing it.