Homebuilder/Engineering firm questionable ethics

[fred181]

My home is experiencing some settling issues. Since it is under warranty, I am working with the builder through a warranty claim to get it fixed.

The builder hired a local engineering firm (a PLLC) to perform the inspection of the house and issue a report with corrective actions. I was informed by both the builder and the engineering firm's scheduler that an engineer would be out to inspect my house. The "engineer" arrived with the builder's rep, performed the inspection, and issued a report a couple months later. Upon reading the report, 1) I had questions about the conclusions, 2) noticed that it was signed and stamped by a PE other than the "engineer" that performed the site inspection. I was able to speak with the "engineer" to ask him questions, which he failed to answer, and ended up parroting what the builder told me (drywall cracking, including diagonal cracks, probably due to king studs in the wall being cut too short(?) and that the house was not settling). I later found out, the "engineer" was neither a PE or EIT, nor a degreed engineer.

I asked the builder to put me in touch with the PE to answer my questions. After being asked by the builder's rep to speak with me, the PE admitted to the builder that he was not familiar with my house or the report, but trusts his employee's recommendations. He declined to speak with me. To the builder's credit, they did bring out a second engineering firm (a geotech), but their scope was much more limited (they did soil testing only), and their conclusion was that the original report should be followed. To date, they have also declined to speak to me.

From the builder's perspective, they have hired two engineers to inspect my house. From my perspective, I have a sub-standard report by a non-engineer of a firm with questionable ethics. The homebuilder seems to have no issue with the first engineering firm's practices. Is there is a similar code of ethics for homebuilders (this is one of the largest in the country)? Any recommendations as to how I should handle this matter?

 

[phamENG]

The fact that the person who inspected the house isn't a degreed engineer isn't necessarily important so long as they are sufficiently trained and knowledgeable. I'm not certain about NC, but across the border here in Virginia you can get your license based on experience alone without a degree (though the experience requirement in that case is measured in decades, rather than years). The more troubling aspect is the fact that the stamping engineer had no knowledge of the report. Of course, that's not to say it doesn't happen. At a former firm when I was an EIT, I had a boss who would call me and tell me to get to his office right away because the owner of X was on the phone with questions about the report I wrote or the building I had designed. I would send him the report to review and sometimes he would and would just want me there to provide more detailed background if he needed it, but sometimes he'd just stamped it and sent it out and didn't have a clue. The former is okay, the latter is arguably a violation of laws regulating professional engineering.

Your best bet is likely to find a more reputable structural engineer who will take the time to do a proper inspection and provide you with a detailed report. I'm not saying this engineer is one of them, but I've encountered engineers who get cozy with a contractor and are their go-to to approve just about anything that hasn't collapsed. The reports tend to be vague and broad. Once faced with a well laid out report with specifics, citations of specific code requirements, and calculations to prove they do or do not meet them, those guys will usually back off.

 

[phamENG]

This thread is relevant: thread765-469134

 

[dik]

I'd contact a local engineer and have them do a report... initial cost may be $1000... don't know the scope or the normal rates in your locale.

I used to do a lot of engineering reports for insurance companies and lawyers. As part of my standard disclaimer I would advise the people with the claim that I was employed by the insurance company, but my report would be essentially the same if I were employed by others. This was part of a standard 'front end' to my reports. One insurance company was particularly bad for denying claims... and with these 'victims' (for lack of a better word) I would strongly suggest they get another opinion.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[fred181]

phamENG, appreciate the response.

I have no issue with the inspection being completed by someone other than an engineer. I didn't expect an engineer to my house. I am frustrated with both the eng firm and builder for misrepresenting their inspector as an engineer, however. Particularly because he could not address the questions I had regarding his report, and the licensed PE refused to do so. I have no intention of policing the ethics of the industry, I simply want to avoid headaches down the line from an inadequate fix. Unfortunately, since the warranty work is being done by the builder, I don't think they would have any obligation to follow a third-party engineer hired by me. Unfortunately, I am at the mercy of the builder at this point.

 

[phamENG]

I disagree. You're only at the mercy of the builder if you have a shite contract and don't want to do anything about it. If you hire your own engineer to write a good report and they disagree with the builder's engineer, you can provide that report to the builder for their consideration and a response from their engineer. Their engineer might say 'oh...didn't consider that...they're right!" though that is a little doubtful. If the builder refuses to pay attention to it and the other engineer won't budge, then litigation is an option. The builder was hired to build you a house that is safe, stable, code compliant, and meets whatever other stipulations were part of the contract. If the house is damaged because of some sort of instability, they probably failed to deliver on the contract.

Now if you think the contractor is behaving unethically, you can contact the state licensing board for contractors and discuss possible remedies with them. I know you say you don't want to police ethics, but that may be the simplest (and cheapest, for you) method of resolving the issue.

 

[MintJulep]

Do you want your house fixed, or do you want reports about why your house is broken?

I guess that you could paste the reports over the cracks in the walls, but that probably won't last very long.

The builder has told you why. Now they need to fix it.

If the cause is correct, then the fix will solve your problems. If your walls crack again after the fix then they need to fix the fix.

Get the warranty extended.

 

[fred181]

MintJulep,

Good suggestion wrt the reports.

You are right and ultimately that is the direction I am headed. Just been frustrating trying to get the engineer to answer basic questions about his report, and for the builder to put a critical eye to the report they were given so we don't have to revisit this issue.

Thank you for the input, everyone.

 

[Rabbit12]

Interesting situation. I've read lots of horror stories about builders doing everything they can to dodge warranty work. It's sad really. Continue pointing fingers until the warranty expires.

On the opposite side it sure sounds like the engineer isn't exactly acting ethically either. Although he has no obligation to talk to you admitting he doesn't know anything about the house he stamped a report on is concerning. Not sure of the rules in your state, but most states require the EOR to have responsible charge. The definition of responsible charge can vary and has some gray areas, but not being familiar with the report certainly doesn't meet any definition I've ever seen.

Please keep us updated on this situation. I'd also consider reporting this engineer to the state board.

 

[TheTick]

I know someone who went through a similar situation, except he was the builder. He couldn't go after his geo engineer unless he was sued by the buyer.

I'm not a fan of unnecessary litigation, but sometimes you need to take action to get action.

 

Somebody needs reporting to your state PE organization, for misrepresenting themselves as an engineer in a safety-related claim.

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."