Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet
Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals
Hospital smoke zones and sprinkler zones 1
- Thread starter jimnogood
- Start date
pipesnpumps
Mechanical
Interesting question! It isn't required by NFPA 13, since that has nothing to do with smoke zones. I just checked NFPA 101-2006 and it does not mention sprinkler zones corresponding with smoke zones for new healthcare..
I think it is just a practical matter of how do you initiate the alarm for the smoke zone that has the fire.. For example, see NFPA 101-2006, section 18.3.4.4.. "Operation of any activating device..shall be arranged to accomplish automatically any control functions to be performed by that device.."
Your AHJ might comment on the design as such:"Sprinkler systems must have flow switches dedicated to each smoke zone due to NFPA 101-2006, section 18.3.4.4.." It doesn't necessarily have to be a 'system riser', but the fusing of any sprinkler in the smoke zone should trip the flow switch and activate the smoke control sequence of operation.
Otherwise you are dependent on the manual pull stations, duct detectors, or door-dedicated smoke detectors, to start the smoke control.. And waiting for those to trip might significantly delay the evacuation process..
A logical argument against this might possibly still meet /someone's/ interpretation of the code, I wouldn't want to "go there" if I were you.
This might be one of those very rare occurrences where the code doesn't seem to match normal design practices..
I think it is just a practical matter of how do you initiate the alarm for the smoke zone that has the fire.. For example, see NFPA 101-2006, section 18.3.4.4.. "Operation of any activating device..shall be arranged to accomplish automatically any control functions to be performed by that device.."
Your AHJ might comment on the design as such:"Sprinkler systems must have flow switches dedicated to each smoke zone due to NFPA 101-2006, section 18.3.4.4.." It doesn't necessarily have to be a 'system riser', but the fusing of any sprinkler in the smoke zone should trip the flow switch and activate the smoke control sequence of operation.
Otherwise you are dependent on the manual pull stations, duct detectors, or door-dedicated smoke detectors, to start the smoke control.. And waiting for those to trip might significantly delay the evacuation process..
A logical argument against this might possibly still meet /someone's/ interpretation of the code, I wouldn't want to "go there" if I were you.
This might be one of those very rare occurrences where the code doesn't seem to match normal design practices..
I ran into this along time ago and ever since i look at the elec dwgs for the alarm diagram or perferably the annuciator panel schematic as we had to add flow switches galore, which was covered in my clearly written change order; that our bid was per specs and code (101, 13, etc) we are rarley privy to the additions allowed by fully sprinklering a bldg and the specifing engineer usually falls short on pointing out that the sprinkler system must be zoned according to the heat/smoke zones..but usually we hafta....
tom poisal, CET
tom poisal, CET
- Thread starter
- #4
Thank you pipesandpumps and spkreng for your insight!!! As I am sure you know, when you do something long enough, you forget if it was code, rule of thumb, common practice, or because someone told you to do it.
This is a case where the hospital does not want this zoning.
This is a case where the hospital does not want this zoning.
pipesnpumps
Mechanical
jim,
Well I hope you talked some sense into them..
Who or what is going to initiate the smoke control for the zone? Think of the scenarios.
A fire starts in a room with a door closed, then the sprinkler head pops setting off the flow switch for that floor.. Now what area alarms for evacuation? The entire floor? You want to use the nurses and staff to shift the patients from the smokey smoke zone to the non-smokey smoke zone. To do that they have to know where the fire is..
The hospital has to go search the entire floor to find out where the fire is, then they have to somehow initiate the smoke control system for the zone the fire was found in..
I would never seal engineering drawings that weren't designed with flow switches by zone, even if it wasn't code. If it is not setup this way it seems to me it will result in complete chaos during a fire situation!
The only way I could see this being feasible is if the hospital had complete smoke or heat detection, and that was used to activate the smoke control.
Well I hope you talked some sense into them..
Who or what is going to initiate the smoke control for the zone? Think of the scenarios.
A fire starts in a room with a door closed, then the sprinkler head pops setting off the flow switch for that floor.. Now what area alarms for evacuation? The entire floor? You want to use the nurses and staff to shift the patients from the smokey smoke zone to the non-smokey smoke zone. To do that they have to know where the fire is..
The hospital has to go search the entire floor to find out where the fire is, then they have to somehow initiate the smoke control system for the zone the fire was found in..
I would never seal engineering drawings that weren't designed with flow switches by zone, even if it wasn't code. If it is not setup this way it seems to me it will result in complete chaos during a fire situation!
The only way I could see this being feasible is if the hospital had complete smoke or heat detection, and that was used to activate the smoke control.
-
1
- #6
stookeyfpe
Specifier/Regulator
If been watching this post as the requirements for smoke barriers in hospital (2009 IBC Group I-2) occupancies have been in the codes for about 20 years. The idea of a smoke barrier is just as its name implies: it’s a barrier for smoke. However, it is one of several components in the patient care area fire protection scheme.
The smoke barrier is the passive fire protection layer in the overall protection scheme for patient treatment areas. It is used in conjunction with an automatic fire alarm and detection system and automatic sprinkler protection. The logic (which has proven to work in a number of incidents) is the smoke detection system provides incipient fire alarm and detection and uses the fire-resistive separation of the smoke compartment construction to isolate the spread of smoke by closing fire door openings and fire dampers. Note that both the IBC and LSC all require corridor smoke detection but allow patient smoke detection that integrates with either a sleeping room door closer or smoke detection that integrates with a UL 268 detection system. Such a system is required by NFPA 72 to be connected to the base building’s fire alarm and detection system.
If the incipient fire is not or cannot be controlled by portable fire extinguishers, then the automatic sprinkler system takes over. Between these separate alarm initiating signals, the fire barrier doors and fire dampers will close (unless the doors are blocked by a cart – yes its happened).
A fire in a patient care area is a major incident. However, contrary to some statements made, it is expected and the staff is trained to move the patients from one smoke compartment to another. It’s for this reason that the IBC limits the area of a smoke compartment to 22,500 square feet and an exit access travel distance to 200 feet. The IBC also requires, regardless of the floor area, two smoke compartments per floor of patient care areas. Each smoke compartment also requires an additional 30 square foot per patient so that space is available to accommodate the relocated patients. Health care providers are trained in patient relocation as part of the building’s evacuation and life safety plan prescribed by both NFPA 101 and the International Fire Code.
The problems for the hospital continue even when the fire is extinguished. Contaminants in the air handling system and building services can cause all sorts of conditions that will impact the care of patients. These fire damaged area must be cleaned and decontaminated before patients can be returned. This can be a major issue, especially in critical care areas such as neonatal or cardiac care areas. Thus, these relocated patients will cause this incident to continue over the period that decontamination and restoration occurs.
As to the why smoke compartments are not integrated with the sprinkler water flow switches, SPKENG offered one reason why it’s a problem. However, understand that the smoke barrier is just one component in the overall fire protection design. Frankly, integrating flow switches means more controls which drives up the cost and no substantial loss history has never been presented to the voting members who write the IBC (and I suspect the same for the NFPA 101 committee) to drive up the cost of one of the more expensive buildings to construct. Plus, complicating these controls adds another maintenance cost to the facilities staff.
The current systems work well based on the loss history in Group I-2 occupancies.
The smoke barrier is the passive fire protection layer in the overall protection scheme for patient treatment areas. It is used in conjunction with an automatic fire alarm and detection system and automatic sprinkler protection. The logic (which has proven to work in a number of incidents) is the smoke detection system provides incipient fire alarm and detection and uses the fire-resistive separation of the smoke compartment construction to isolate the spread of smoke by closing fire door openings and fire dampers. Note that both the IBC and LSC all require corridor smoke detection but allow patient smoke detection that integrates with either a sleeping room door closer or smoke detection that integrates with a UL 268 detection system. Such a system is required by NFPA 72 to be connected to the base building’s fire alarm and detection system.
If the incipient fire is not or cannot be controlled by portable fire extinguishers, then the automatic sprinkler system takes over. Between these separate alarm initiating signals, the fire barrier doors and fire dampers will close (unless the doors are blocked by a cart – yes its happened).
A fire in a patient care area is a major incident. However, contrary to some statements made, it is expected and the staff is trained to move the patients from one smoke compartment to another. It’s for this reason that the IBC limits the area of a smoke compartment to 22,500 square feet and an exit access travel distance to 200 feet. The IBC also requires, regardless of the floor area, two smoke compartments per floor of patient care areas. Each smoke compartment also requires an additional 30 square foot per patient so that space is available to accommodate the relocated patients. Health care providers are trained in patient relocation as part of the building’s evacuation and life safety plan prescribed by both NFPA 101 and the International Fire Code.
The problems for the hospital continue even when the fire is extinguished. Contaminants in the air handling system and building services can cause all sorts of conditions that will impact the care of patients. These fire damaged area must be cleaned and decontaminated before patients can be returned. This can be a major issue, especially in critical care areas such as neonatal or cardiac care areas. Thus, these relocated patients will cause this incident to continue over the period that decontamination and restoration occurs.
As to the why smoke compartments are not integrated with the sprinkler water flow switches, SPKENG offered one reason why it’s a problem. However, understand that the smoke barrier is just one component in the overall fire protection design. Frankly, integrating flow switches means more controls which drives up the cost and no substantial loss history has never been presented to the voting members who write the IBC (and I suspect the same for the NFPA 101 committee) to drive up the cost of one of the more expensive buildings to construct. Plus, complicating these controls adds another maintenance cost to the facilities staff.
The current systems work well based on the loss history in Group I-2 occupancies.
mauricestoker
Mechanical
StookyFPE,
I have a somewhat related question. Do the smoke control dampers need to report status or trouble to the FACP or FSCS, or can they report to a building automation system used for initiating a smoke control program? I'm working on controls and HVAC replacement, and noticed that interstitial smoke control dampers report trouble/status to the BAS only.
As an example, for unsprinklered interstital space, the IMC air requirement (and dewpoint control) requires supply air to the interstitial, which is typically done by using air handling units that also serve occupied area. For a smoke event, the return duct detector in the interstitial will initiate a smoke control program which closes all interstitial supply and return SCD's, energize interstitial smoke purge fans, and override any air handling unit control to drive the unit into full economizer mode (AHU return damper shuts, relief damper goes full open).
I'm curious, as during site walk, I noticed that an interstitial supply with smoke control damper was inadvertently demolished by a construction contractor, no trouble went to the FACP, but local alarm on the BAS recorded the event. The BAS in not continuously manned, so no one noticed until I pulled the hard copy printout.
Fortunately, it was on a supply. I'm curious, as if this was on a return, a smoke event would have left the duct unprotected, which would have returned to the unit. The unit serves 6 floors, so shutdown would have evacuated a lot of people.
I have a somewhat related question. Do the smoke control dampers need to report status or trouble to the FACP or FSCS, or can they report to a building automation system used for initiating a smoke control program? I'm working on controls and HVAC replacement, and noticed that interstitial smoke control dampers report trouble/status to the BAS only.
As an example, for unsprinklered interstital space, the IMC air requirement (and dewpoint control) requires supply air to the interstitial, which is typically done by using air handling units that also serve occupied area. For a smoke event, the return duct detector in the interstitial will initiate a smoke control program which closes all interstitial supply and return SCD's, energize interstitial smoke purge fans, and override any air handling unit control to drive the unit into full economizer mode (AHU return damper shuts, relief damper goes full open).
I'm curious, as during site walk, I noticed that an interstitial supply with smoke control damper was inadvertently demolished by a construction contractor, no trouble went to the FACP, but local alarm on the BAS recorded the event. The BAS in not continuously manned, so no one noticed until I pulled the hard copy printout.
Fortunately, it was on a supply. I'm curious, as if this was on a return, a smoke event would have left the duct unprotected, which would have returned to the unit. The unit serves 6 floors, so shutdown would have evacuated a lot of people.
stookeyfpe
Specifier/Regulator
Maurice,
Please start another thread so others can search for an answer in the future.
Please start another thread so others can search for an answer in the future.
pipesnpumps
Mechanical
Stookeyfpe's write up sounds very thorough and well informed, however my copy of NFPA 101-2009 does not require smoke detection through-out corridors for New Health Care Occupancies as he mentioned.
What did I miss? The only /required/ smoke detectors are on the smoke barrier door closers or in the air handlers.
Therefore medical facilities which follow NFPA 101 but not IFC would not have the any means of knowing which smoke zone the fire is in. These are the type I am familiar with.
That's why it is normal practice, and should be required practice, to configure the sprinklers by zone.. BUT as I said if there is a complete smoke detection system that indicates the smoke zone that would be sufficient.
I have 4 nurses in my immediately family, all work at hospitals. I can assure you if a fire broke out the average nurse would not know exactly what to do even if they knew what smoke zone the fire was in. About all they have been able to recall from their training when I've asked is that 'code red' over the PA system means fire. Adding that additional complication of not knowing which zone to evacuate would really hurt their response.
What did I miss? The only /required/ smoke detectors are on the smoke barrier door closers or in the air handlers.
Therefore medical facilities which follow NFPA 101 but not IFC would not have the any means of knowing which smoke zone the fire is in. These are the type I am familiar with.
That's why it is normal practice, and should be required practice, to configure the sprinklers by zone.. BUT as I said if there is a complete smoke detection system that indicates the smoke zone that would be sufficient.
I have 4 nurses in my immediately family, all work at hospitals. I can assure you if a fire broke out the average nurse would not know exactly what to do even if they knew what smoke zone the fire was in. About all they have been able to recall from their training when I've asked is that 'code red' over the PA system means fire. Adding that additional complication of not knowing which zone to evacuate would really hurt their response.
pipesnpumps
hopefuly not a patient in one of thier hospitals, most hospitals I have been around get with the training and know what to do.
do not have the 09 but 06 says:::
18.3.6 Corridors.
18.3.6.1 Corridor Separation. Corridors shall be separated from all other areas by partitions complying with 18.3.6.2 through 18.3.6.5 (see also 18.2.5.3), unless otherwise permitted by the following:
(1) Spaces shall be permitted to be unlimited in area and open to the corridor, provided that the following criteria are met:
(a) The spaces are not used for patient sleeping rooms, treatment rooms, or hazardous areas.
(b) The corridors onto which the spaces open in the same smoke compartment are protected by an electrically supervised automatic smoke detection system in accordance with 18.3.4, or the smoke compartment in which the space is located is protected throughout by quick-response sprinklers.
(c) The open space is protected by an electrically supervised automatic smoke detection system in accordance with 18.3.4, or the entire space is arranged and located to allow direct supervision by the facility staff from a nurses’ station or similar space.
(d) The space does not obstruct access to required exits.
(2) Waiting areas shall be permitted to be open to the corridor, provided that the following criteria are met:
(a) The aggregate waiting area in each smoke compartment does not exceed 600 ft2 (55.7 m2).
(b) Each area is protected by an electrically supervised automatic smoke detection system in accordance with 18.3.4, or each area is arranged and located to allow direct supervision by the facility staff from a nursing station or similar space.
(c) The area does not obstruct access to required exits.
(3)* This requirement shall not apply to spaces for nurses’ stations.
(4) Gift shops not exceeding 500 ft2 (46.4 m2) shall be permitted to be open to the corridor or lobby, provided that the building is protected throughout by an approved automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 9.7.
(5) In a limited care facility, group meeting or multipurpose therapeutic spaces shall be permitted to open to the corridor, provided that the following criteria are met:
(a) The space is not a hazardous area.
(b) The space is protected by an electrically supervised automatic smoke detection system in accordance with 18.3.4, or the space is arranged and located to allow direct supervision by the facility staff from the nurses’ station or similar location.
(c) The space does not obstruct access to required exits.
18.3.4.5 Detection.
18.3.4.5.1 General. Detection systems, where required, shall be in accordance with Section 9.6.
18.3.4.5.2 Detection in Spaces Open to Corridors. See 18.3.6.1.
hopefuly not a patient in one of thier hospitals, most hospitals I have been around get with the training and know what to do.
do not have the 09 but 06 says:::
18.3.6 Corridors.
18.3.6.1 Corridor Separation. Corridors shall be separated from all other areas by partitions complying with 18.3.6.2 through 18.3.6.5 (see also 18.2.5.3), unless otherwise permitted by the following:
(1) Spaces shall be permitted to be unlimited in area and open to the corridor, provided that the following criteria are met:
(a) The spaces are not used for patient sleeping rooms, treatment rooms, or hazardous areas.
(b) The corridors onto which the spaces open in the same smoke compartment are protected by an electrically supervised automatic smoke detection system in accordance with 18.3.4, or the smoke compartment in which the space is located is protected throughout by quick-response sprinklers.
(c) The open space is protected by an electrically supervised automatic smoke detection system in accordance with 18.3.4, or the entire space is arranged and located to allow direct supervision by the facility staff from a nurses’ station or similar space.
(d) The space does not obstruct access to required exits.
(2) Waiting areas shall be permitted to be open to the corridor, provided that the following criteria are met:
(a) The aggregate waiting area in each smoke compartment does not exceed 600 ft2 (55.7 m2).
(b) Each area is protected by an electrically supervised automatic smoke detection system in accordance with 18.3.4, or each area is arranged and located to allow direct supervision by the facility staff from a nursing station or similar space.
(c) The area does not obstruct access to required exits.
(3)* This requirement shall not apply to spaces for nurses’ stations.
(4) Gift shops not exceeding 500 ft2 (46.4 m2) shall be permitted to be open to the corridor or lobby, provided that the building is protected throughout by an approved automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 9.7.
(5) In a limited care facility, group meeting or multipurpose therapeutic spaces shall be permitted to open to the corridor, provided that the following criteria are met:
(a) The space is not a hazardous area.
(b) The space is protected by an electrically supervised automatic smoke detection system in accordance with 18.3.4, or the space is arranged and located to allow direct supervision by the facility staff from the nurses’ station or similar location.
(c) The space does not obstruct access to required exits.
18.3.4.5 Detection.
18.3.4.5.1 General. Detection systems, where required, shall be in accordance with Section 9.6.
18.3.4.5.2 Detection in Spaces Open to Corridors. See 18.3.6.1.
pipesnpumps
Mechanical
cdafd,
The 2009 version matches what you posted.. Reading closely this still does not require smoke detectors in the corridors.
This section only applies when there are common areas open to the corridors; Even then it requires smoke detectors in the adjacent corridors only under certain conditions.. For example, if QR sprinklers are installed throughout, no smoke detectors are required even if there is a common area.. Same for if there is a nurses station, etc.
TO SUM IT ALL UP:
Smoke detectors are not required by NFPA 101 (except for door closers, HVAC, and other specific uses), and if there is not complete smoke detection installed throughout the building you really should zone the sprinklers by smoke zone..
stookeyfpe
Specifier/Regulator
What is missed is that the Life Safety Code is not the panacea of fire protection. If you build a hospital in the US, the LSC is just one code that must be complied with. The building must also comply with the IBC and IFC, as they are generally the adopted construction codes. NFPA 101 has no requirements for structural loading or building sanitation, which have importance in the design of any structure.
The smoke compartment issue is just but one issue - however, conflicts arise between a NFPA standard and what is prescribed by the model building and fire code. If its inadequate, a code change needs to be submitted to correct the perceived problem. The IBC and IFC solve the problem - their requirements take precedence.
The smoke compartment issue is just but one issue - however, conflicts arise between a NFPA standard and what is prescribed by the model building and fire code. If its inadequate, a code change needs to be submitted to correct the perceived problem. The IBC and IFC solve the problem - their requirements take precedence.
pipesnpumps
Mechanical
I have dealt extensively with hospitals such as Department of Defense owned ones that do not follow the IFC, and do not have smoke detector requirements. And I am pretty sure there are a few existing hospitals out there which do not meet current codes, and therefore don't have full smoke detector coverage identifiable by zone (addressable or circuited by zone).. In these new sprinkler piping must be separated out by zone..
So stooky's advice might sound really good, well informed, and deserve a star, but can also get you into serious trouble and kill people if you don't take it with a grain of salt and look at the big picture!
I may not have flowery important sounding write-ups, or know what 'panacea' means, but I know that much..
So stooky's advice might sound really good, well informed, and deserve a star, but can also get you into serious trouble and kill people if you don't take it with a grain of salt and look at the big picture!
I may not have flowery important sounding write-ups, or know what 'panacea' means, but I know that much..
mauricestoker
Mechanical
Where a waterflow switch or heat detector is used to activate a zoned smoke-control system, zoning on such systems shall coincide with the smoke control zone.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Question