How can I be taken seriously? 3

[acfreema]

Long story short, I am 30, have a BA in philosophy and AAS in business, and no time to spend earning _another_ degree just to appease HR. For much of the last seven years, I've worked in IT, and devised a bunch of answers to problems because there were no practical commercial solutions or they weren't in the budget.

Now, for nearly the last year, I've been working in software testing at a major international equipment design and manufacturing company. With my degree, I don't see myself getting anywhere near $50k/year at this place in less than 10 years, but only because it's not on management's list of "valuable" subjects. Case in point: one of the embedded software engineers has an undergrad in math, was an intern for his senior year, and was hired on right after graduation last spring or the year before (ie no "real-world" programming experience).

Essentially, my question is "How can I be taken seriously as a person capable of doing what needs to be done?". How do I convince HR and management that I am a valuable asset capable of being more than just the most effective software tester they have? Is a degree mill like Ashwood University the answer?

 

[zelgar]

I think a lot of others gave you clear feedback, and some of it may have been a little more harsh than you expected. In most cases, I think they were concise and to the point, especially in IRstuff's last post. In a way, I think you wanted a little more sympathy than was given in this thread and resented what you read.

I think your best approach at this point is to check with your boss and HR to find out what they would want from a future employee. Don't be surprised if you don't get anywhere, because they might not want to deal with a temp's issues; but at least make the effort to try. At a minimum, see what you can learn at your current position. If you have skill sets going unused, let your boss know that you can do more. You might not get any immediate financial benefits; but if you do a good job, it might lead to future possibilities.

Additionally, see if your temp agency has any additional resources you can use. Typically, they get paid a percentage of the salary of the position &/or benefits so it's in their advantage to put you in the highest paid position they can find. See if there is something higher skilled/paid than your current position. Check with them on what they require for those other positions and what skill-sets are required. Who knows, you may have sold yourself short due to your lack of a complete resume.

In all cases, be sincere and thankful to anyone who you talk to, no matter how much or little they assist you.

 

[MJB315]

Acfreema,

Three things are clear: you have trouble internalizing criticism, you do not value what an engineer does, and you have difficulty communicating the value that you provide to your employer.


First, you asked your question on this forum. A number of responses have highlighted reasonable shortcomings in your experience, perspective, and outlook, and you've generally dismissed them. Or you've paid lip service by calling them "apparently creditable sources", which is the same thing. "Know Thyself" means to know your weaknesses too, and being critical of yourself as important as having confidence in yourself. Maybe it's not what you're looking for and maybe its not our place-- but again, you asked your question, and these responses are relevant to your situation.

Second, an engineer is not a mindless automaton, turning cranks and checking numbers. It's a person who take a complicated process, tries to identify all the simple things that are going on, and tries to keep track of each. Degree programs provide the background that allows an engineer the tools to identify the simple things (or fundamentals) and the tools to keep track of them all (or math). If you think that the only value that a degree provides is to "appease HR", then I think you don't respect the profession.

If you don't respect that the profession, than it will be hard for you to ever justify the value you provide the team in a real dollar sense. Regardless of the reason, you say that you are having that difficulty. Justifying your value is straightforward. You provided services that brought in (or supported) "X" much revenue. You expect that you will continue to provide "X" revenue plus "Y" additional in the coming "Z" time period. Therefore, you should be entitled to an extra "$" amount. Yes, it is hard to determine all of those things. Yes, it's even harder to justify them. And yes, even so, it may not amount to anything. But it's all there is, unless you wait for HR to do it for you.

I know all these things are hard to implement in practice, but nothing is easy. Best wishes.




"We shape our buildings, thereafter they shape us." -WSC

 

[juleselec]

Rightly or wrongly, the stigma of not being degree-qualified will follow you throughout your career in engineering, even if you do manage to become recognised as an engineer. I've worked with a bunch of guys who didn't have a degree but were classed as engineers, and there is often an unacknowledged subtext that these guys didn't have the foundational mathematics and physics background. You can clearly see this attitude in some of the responses to your question.

Degree-qualified engineers seem to believe that nobody would be mad / motivated enough to bother learning the solutions to partial differential equations in their leisure time. There's probably some truth to that, but perhaps you're an edge case. Anyway, the fact remains that you'll probably not be trusted to become anything more than a technician without the credentials. So unless you want to be fighting against this throughout your entire career, then I suggest that you just suck it up and get a technical degree.

Having said all that, I've noticed that the rules are slightly different in software / IT. There are more opportunities for people without degrees to flourish without the associated stigma of not having the right credentials. I'd speculate that this is because it is relatively easy for software engineers to present a public portfolio of their past work (e.g. side projects, open source contributions, tutorials, etc). I've heard that some software firms will go as far as to accept a Github profile in lieu of a resume. So perhaps a course of action for you is to create a portfolio of software projects, tools, etc that you've created, i.e. stuff that demonstrates that you know what you're doing.

 

[spongebob007]

Rightly or wrongly when you are 50+ years old and you get laid off, NOBODY will hire you as an engineer. Your 30+ years of experience are irrelevant and the job will go to a 22 year old kid right out of school.

My dad was a non-degreed engineer who worked at the same company for over 20 years. When the company was bought out he was downsized in the reorganization. At 53 years of age he was not able to find another job. Age discrimination in engineering exists. It's hard enough after 45 with a degree and pretty much impossible without one.

I'm not gonna sugar coat it here, if you want to be taken seriously you need to make an attitude adjustment to start out with. Then you need to go out and get the credentials required for the job.

 

[crerus75]

Perhaps you need to approach this from the other end. Figure out what you require from your job (you mentioned 50k/year in your first post, and perhaps that is one of your requirements). Then find out what it takes to get there in your area. You may very well find out that there's no way around a degree and/or certifications, and that it's time to either do something else or be happy with what you can get.

I work with a few non-degreed engineers. They have probably 15-25 years experience each, many of them having started off as machine operators. They are doing well, especially considering their lack of formal credentials, but they are lifers. They will not get hired anywhere else no matter how extensive their experience is. They do not have options if we downsize, have layoffs, etc.

I got my degree less than 2 years ago and am working alongside these guys, right out of the gate. There are no shortcuts, and certifications and degrees do mean something to employers even if they are not reliable as predictors of performance. Being a good employee is something you prove to your SUPERVISOR. Being a viable candidate (not the same thing) is something you prove to HR. The latter has to come before the former, and certifications and degrees are a good way to do it.

No matter how much we'd like to, we can't change the job market. I too consider myself an excellent problem solver. At my previous jobs I've had to be a jack-of-all-trades. I can probably build most of the stuff I'm designing by virtue of having an extensive technical background. It makes me a better engineer, I think, a fact that my supervisor recognizes. However, nobody will care that I can go out to the shop floor and build stuff, or solve networking problems if/when I have to, or run a lathe and a mill, or any of those "bonus" things I can do. They only care that I can fill the job requirements. Saying, "I dont have the certs, but look at all the problems I can solve for you" will only help you AFTER you get the job. Getting hired and doing the work are two drastically different processes.