My concern is this. Many of my customers are running 4kw machines with little or no protection. Their attitude is they're using 4kw, why would they need to be concerned with say a 2kw fiber laser?
Chris Krug
Chris Krug
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how dangerous are the fiber lasers? 2
- Thread starter krugtech
- Start date
Well, in either case, they're design to CUT things, are they not? That puts them clearly in a Class 4 category, and they are both dangerous enough.
They are courting disaster, and presumably, if OSHA were to get involved, changes would be made.
Are these lasers are in the visible or UV? At the minimum, safety goggles and interlocks are mandatory, per Federal law. Even a reflection off a shiny bit of material could potentially damage your vision.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
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They are courting disaster, and presumably, if OSHA were to get involved, changes would be made.
Are these lasers are in the visible or UV? At the minimum, safety goggles and interlocks are mandatory, per Federal law. Even a reflection off a shiny bit of material could potentially damage your vision.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
- Thread starter
- #3
I guess I should have been more specific. It's all about the wavelength. From what I gather, the wavelength of the fiber lasers is very dangerous compared to a CO2 laser. A stray CO2 reflection will burn the surface of your eye, usually healing 100% as the energy densities are low. Light from a fiber laser passes into the eye and is focused by the lens in your eye which burns the back of your eye- I don't think you'll recover from that.
Just another dirty laser industry secret I guess.......
Chris Krug
Just another dirty laser industry secret I guess.......
Chris Krug
Anything ~1.5um and above are called "eye-safe," but only in the sense that if they damage your eyes, they damage the corneas only, which allows for surgical replacement. Below those wavelengths, the energy will enter the eyeball itself and damage the retinas, which are not replaceable.
That said, any individual exposure will not necessarily cause complete blindness, unless blood vessels are ruptured, etc. Single spots will leave specific blind spots that only a full field vision test and determine and map. There are those that would presumably show large numbers of blind spots if tested, which they should get done every couple of years or so. An operator of a non-eye-safe laser must wear eye protection, as a minimum. You can get skin burns from most visible lasers, if powerful enough. A 50mW green laser can certainly warm up your finger.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
That said, any individual exposure will not necessarily cause complete blindness, unless blood vessels are ruptured, etc. Single spots will leave specific blind spots that only a full field vision test and determine and map. There are those that would presumably show large numbers of blind spots if tested, which they should get done every couple of years or so. An operator of a non-eye-safe laser must wear eye protection, as a minimum. You can get skin burns from most visible lasers, if powerful enough. A 50mW green laser can certainly warm up your finger.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
fiber lasers are a class 1 laser and are supposed to be in a complete enclosure with a protective coating on the glass. beam reflection in a fiber laser is by far much worse than a co2 laser.
beam diameter in a fiber laser is appx .06 mm compared to co2 which is .125 mm so it is much more concentrated and much more susceptible to beam deflection
beam diameter in a fiber laser is appx .06 mm compared to co2 which is .125 mm so it is much more concentrated and much more susceptible to beam deflection
Not every fiber laser is Class 1. Fiber lasers have been built at wavelengths ranging from UV to SWIR. To apply a blanket safety assessment on "fiber laser" without knowing operational parameters is irresponsible.
There is a power/energy limit for which any laser of any technology at any wavelength will become unsafe.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
There is a power/energy limit for which any laser of any technology at any wavelength will become unsafe.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
- Thread starter
- #7
I looked into it a little further, it seems most of the fiber lasers in the kw range are class 1. I think it would be foolish as well as reckless to assume watt for watt that a typical fiber laser isn't any more dangerous than a typical CO2 laser.
Chris Krug
Chris Krug
Again, it's difficult to do an accurate assessment without knowing all the operational parameters. That said, one can compare the nominal ocular hazard distance (NOHD) for 100mJ, 10Hz, 20-ns pulse lasers at 532 and 10600:
532 NOHD 836 m
10600 NOHD 9.35 m
Based on those specific parameters, the CO2 laser was technically "safer"
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
532 NOHD 836 m
10600 NOHD 9.35 m
Based on those specific parameters, the CO2 laser was technically "safer"
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
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1
- Thread starter
- #9
What are you saying IRstuff? There are instances where a fiber laser could possibly need like 800 times the NOHD but don't worry about it as it's only "technically" safer? How about reality? What exactly is your agenda here?
I be honest with you, I've spoken to everyone from optics manufacturers to people who design resonators. Almost every one of them is concerned about the more dangerous wavelengths. The only ones I've heard that even remotely minimized the danger to the extent that you have, are either selling fiber lasers or making money supporting them.
Chris Krug
I be honest with you, I've spoken to everyone from optics manufacturers to people who design resonators. Almost every one of them is concerned about the more dangerous wavelengths. The only ones I've heard that even remotely minimized the danger to the extent that you have, are either selling fiber lasers or making money supporting them.
Chris Krug
Please do not put words in my mouth. 832 m NOHD vs 9.35 m NOHD means that you need to be 90 times farther away to be eye-safe. If you bother to read my complete response, I stated that under those specific conditions, the CO2 laser was technically safer, specifically because of the shorter NOHD. Nonetheless, if the operator, or a victim, exposes their eyes within the NOHD, they will most likely get damaged.
If you don't understand NOHD, then you should probably read the ANSI laser safety standard Z136.1
You are asking about a complete generality without any numbers or performance parameters or operational conditions. Asking whether a "fiber laser" is safe is not an engineering question. Makes me wonder what YOUR agenda is.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
If you don't understand NOHD, then you should probably read the ANSI laser safety standard Z136.1
You are asking about a complete generality without any numbers or performance parameters or operational conditions. Asking whether a "fiber laser" is safe is not an engineering question. Makes me wonder what YOUR agenda is.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
- Thread starter
- #11
My agenda is simple. I see the way people run the CO2 lasers with minimal/no safety equipment and not much really ever happens. I see them trying to do that with the fiber lasers and I'm concerned it's not going to be good for anyone in the laser industry. We can talk numbers and specs but all I really care about is preparing my customers to be able to deal with any upcoming technology in a safe manner. We can break this down now or we can make believe there's nothing to worry about and after a while OSHA will take care of it all for us in a manner that I'm sure we wont like.
Chris Krug
Chris Krug
People engage in risky behavior all the time. For many, that behavior will remain unchanged until a catastrophe occurs. As with the proverbial horse, you can lead them the safety warnings, but you can't make them heed the warnings. This is no different than the Upper Big Branch mine fiasco:
In that case, even when there are laws in place, and penalties in place, people will still do whatever they want. From that perspective, whether a fiber laser system is "safer" or more "dangerous" compared to a CO2 system is moot.
If it's not Class 1, beware. Even if it is Class 1, beware. There have been plenty of design and construction errors in laser systems that make something that's ostensibly Class 1 become Class 3.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
In that case, even when there are laws in place, and penalties in place, people will still do whatever they want. From that perspective, whether a fiber laser system is "safer" or more "dangerous" compared to a CO2 system is moot.
If it's not Class 1, beware. Even if it is Class 1, beware. There have been plenty of design and construction errors in laser systems that make something that's ostensibly Class 1 become Class 3.
TTFN
FAQ731-376
Chinese prisoner wins Nobel Peace Prize
MacGyverS2000
Electrical
Krug,
There's no cure for stupidity and/or carelessness. I work with a Class 4 systems every day, and it doesn't matter if I'm working with 5W or 5kW, the basic safety measures are all the same. If a floor manager cannot get his people to follow basic safety procedures, he has no right being a floor manager. If those people cannot follow procedures laid out by management, they have no right being on the floor. No 'if's, 'and's or 'but's.
I see no difference between a 2kW fiber and a 4kW CO2 system, and neither does OSHA. If one customer of yours cannot be bothered to provide a safe work environment, so be it, that's their choice... but I don't see it as an industry-wide issue. Once you hit the "several Watt" and up range, they're all dangerous, it just depends upon how long you're willing to wait for permanent damage.
Now if you all will excuse me, I have some acrylics panels that need to be sliced and diced...
Dan - Owner
There's no cure for stupidity and/or carelessness. I work with a Class 4 systems every day, and it doesn't matter if I'm working with 5W or 5kW, the basic safety measures are all the same. If a floor manager cannot get his people to follow basic safety procedures, he has no right being a floor manager. If those people cannot follow procedures laid out by management, they have no right being on the floor. No 'if's, 'and's or 'but's.
I see no difference between a 2kW fiber and a 4kW CO2 system, and neither does OSHA. If one customer of yours cannot be bothered to provide a safe work environment, so be it, that's their choice... but I don't see it as an industry-wide issue. Once you hit the "several Watt" and up range, they're all dangerous, it just depends upon how long you're willing to wait for permanent damage.
Now if you all will excuse me, I have some acrylics panels that need to be sliced and diced...
Dan - Owner
- Thread starter
- #14
the basic safety measures for a fiber laser are the same for a CO2 laser? I've looked at some and beg to differ
Chris Krug
Chris Krug
MacGyverS2000
Electrical
krug,
By "basic" I mean from the user's standpoint... not looking into the beam, protecting myself from stray reflections, making sure system-specific safety devices are in proper working order before use, etc. The same rules of use should be followed regardless of laser type, and to do otherwise is inviting disaster. It is the user's job (and management's) to follow common sense rules, and the manufacturers cannot be expected to place a person next to the machine for the rest of its operating life to babysit users. Most shops do this (all that I've worked with certainly have). Therefore, like IRstuff, I'm not sure what the point of this thread really is... there will always be shops who think they can get away with running on the ragged edge, but it will eventually catch up with them, and I don't see them as being in the majority.
Dan - Owner
By "basic" I mean from the user's standpoint... not looking into the beam, protecting myself from stray reflections, making sure system-specific safety devices are in proper working order before use, etc. The same rules of use should be followed regardless of laser type, and to do otherwise is inviting disaster. It is the user's job (and management's) to follow common sense rules, and the manufacturers cannot be expected to place a person next to the machine for the rest of its operating life to babysit users. Most shops do this (all that I've worked with certainly have). Therefore, like IRstuff, I'm not sure what the point of this thread really is... there will always be shops who think they can get away with running on the ragged edge, but it will eventually catch up with them, and I don't see them as being in the majority.
Dan - Owner
- Thread starter
- #17
The point of this thread is to discuss the dangers of fiber lasers compared to CO2. I've heard everything from no difference to "it's like comparing lead to plutonium" Lead and plutonium are both hazardous substances but need to be treated differently.
I'm not hearing any stories about cumulative eye damage from CO2 lasers.
Chris Krug
I'm not hearing any stories about cumulative eye damage from CO2 lasers.
Chris Krug
MacGyverS2000
Electrical
You're also sampling an extremely small number of laser users, making this statistically insignificant.krugtech said:
Both laser types are dangerous... to argue otherwise is folly. While the damage may occur in different ways, the point to take home is there is damage. This is like arguing about how Mary Antoinette died; loss of blood or having no head. It's irrelevant, the potential for damage is real, and therefore both tools should be used with the care due them.
Dan - Owner
- Thread starter
- #19
You're making assumptions as to where I'm getting my info from. Where are you getting your info from?
Chris Krug
Chris Krug
MacGyverS2000
Electrical
Knock yourself out with this thread then, Chris, but I still fail to see what you hope to accomplish here.
Dan - Owner
Dan - Owner
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