How do you convert a 5 ton roof top unit into a generator? 1

[ChillerPro]

Greetings Fellow HVAC technical types,

I can honestly say at this point in my 25 years in the electrical and HVAC business, that I have not been more frustrated, down right mad and dissapointed about what is happening in the HVAC industry in regards to all the claims that are being made out there to improve the efficencies and performance of HVAC equipment. If I put enough snake oil(PROA),install an Artic Master and a Little Black Box with three wires up to my unit then I should be able to get a License and start selling power back to the power companies right? The claims that are being made are incredible and the worst part is the number of people, including some engineers who are listening to the garbage being stated about these so called energy saving products. I have yet to see or read a credible report by any testing labrotory that can back up any of the claims being made for by the Artic Master folks or the PROA oil tycoons.
Gentlemen it is really quite simple to develop a legitimate testing protocol to determine the real impact any modification to a refrigeration system that a product could possibly produce. I have read 30 to 40 reports regarding PROA and the Artic Master and have not seen one that gives the before work/input to work/output measurement in comparison to the work/input to work/output measurement of a particular piece of equipment after the hocus pocus spell was initiated. And I do not mean the readings on an ampmeter as proof that anything happened if anything happened at all!
Guys I would like your feedback and any experience that you may have encountered with PROA or the Artic Master. I am in the process or you might say in the middle of a battle with some folks that I work with regarding both of these products. I need some feedback from the field in regards to both. Also any issues regarding any equipment failures and warranty problems from using either of these products.

Just needing a reality check!

Thanks,
The Chiller PRO

 

[ClydeMule]

ChillerPro,

You should take a look at the thread I started back in March about the artic master. I have a guy who works on my chillers who has sent me stuff on the artic master and this magic oil.

I understand your frustration with the high pedestal on which energy savings is placed. While achieving energy efficency and being environmentally conscious is a goal that all engineers and equipment designers should strive for, it should not come at the cost of producing or specifying a chiller that does not have a long reliable life. What does the efficiency calculate out to when the thing isn't working?

Often times, award winning efficient designs, from a large system to a small piece of equipment are not made from just adding some black box or fancy doodad. They are creating by taking a close look at the energy use of a system and applying the properly sized equipment.

As a professional engineer, and designer of water chillers I am constantly bombarded with doodads that can save energy. It is up to me to decide if it is worth the cost.

Back to the arcticmaster:

As I said earlier in the day, one of my biggest reasons to stay away from this thing is not the impressive claims, but the lame justifications for the claim. None of the number crunching that I have done (and the great ProfSporlan) was top secret or even difficult. It was basic thermodyanimcs. Why are none of those calculations shown? It almost seems that the thing does actually work, they just don't have the foggiest idea why. That means when the Articmaster is not applied properly they won't know how to fix it. They will just blame it on improper installation.


Clyde

 

[Yeldud]

Not familiar with these products, so can't give you any first hand information. So instead... "if it sounds too good to be true, and it quacks like a duck, then it's a DUCK". I support your search for the Truth... Regards

 

[sonofachem]

SNAKE OIL EXPOSED!

The truth of the matter is that Proa oil has some benefiting factors, but the claims that these companies preach are in technical terms..."insane"...."lies"...and "deceitful".

About 4 years ago I was approached to fund one of these "snake oil" companies. What I found out in the discussions frightened me. The handful of Proa companies all originated from one group of egger business men trying to strike it rich. The primary owner of the then polar shield company is now resting in jail for the next ten years. When the company dismantled six partners went their separate ways. If you haven't noticed all these companies seem to have the same pictures and almost identical literature. How ironic. Besides the fraudulent owners, the Proa oil they use is a simple additive to standard refrigerant oil. What these guys did is simply add Chlorowax to the compound; this is their special magic trick. The link below will tell you in depth what actually that chemical does.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FVP/is_24_261/ai_87532478

Proa oil simply creates a lubricant in the tubing that allows the materials to move less restricted and can clean up built up corrosion. This is great if you want to keep up an outdated HVAC system. All the claims of huge success are simply old systems that needed and change of oil or cleansing. This however has nothing to due with heat transfer. The reports you see on the brochures about "1500%" gained efficiency is related to a study of Chlorowax and oxidation. Again, nothing to due with heat transfer.

The good news is that Proa will not damage your system. The future in this concept of synthetic products is slowly improving though. I know that there is another manufacturer that is using a completely different chemical than Chlorowax that is fully synthetic and does provide heat transfer. The Heat Transfer Research Institute is going to be confirming the new product as well as test and possibly ASHRAE. From what I have heard this new product will not be on the market for another two to three years. Here are some links supporting the theory for the new-age product from Purdue University and Spartacus Group.

http://www.arti-21cr.org/research/completed/finalreports/50035-final.pdf

http://www.arti-21cr.org/research/completed/finalreports/20080-final.pdf

The next generation snake oil is going to be highly soluble to water to help remove any unwanted moisture, lubricate tube lining similar to Proa, but also react with the Freon to increase heat transfer through high flux nucleate boiling. But of course....I will believe it when I see it.

Until the new fully synthetic products hit the market I would not advise on buying any snake oil.

The truth hurts

And always remember, believe nothing you hear, and half of what you see.

 

[MintJulep]

Any you can gain even more. Just replace all your conventional envelope insulation with this miricle snake-oil paint on inuslation.

http://www.supertherm.net/home.htm

A few mils of paint insulates as well as 8 inches of fibergalss. Just amazing.

 

[Whoops]

The little Black Box with three wires connected to the compressor will usually invalidate any remaining manufacturer's warranty.

How did I find that out? Don't ask!