How do you use Capabilities of BIM process? 1

[hardworker54]

How do you use all capabilities of BIM process?

Does your company is involved in real BIM process - architectural company, engineering company, detailing, fabrication and erection?

It seems to me that the BIM is a good trick. I mean that all members of the process must have the same program and must have experienced staff.
I think that there are many bursts in this process. It concerns especially detailing, fabrication and erection.

I would like to know your Independently Opinions about it.

 

[francesca]

You are completely wrong about all members in the process needing the same software. An ideal BIM would use Industry Foundation Classes for file formats and the software would be completely interoperable.

I am about to do a "BIM" for a transportation design project. The design will include elements from Geopak and Civil 3D, with a Microsoft Project schedule. We'll bring the three elements together first aggregating CAD data in Civil 3D and then tying to schedule in Navisworks. All parties will be able to use Navisworks Freedom (free viewer) to use the BIM. We may use Google Sketchup, or the Architect's Revit model from an adjacent project, plus AutoCAD for some 3D content that I don't have "BIM" objects for.

As for a cool trick, yes, it's a pretty awesome trick to get more accurate earthwork data and creating a visualization of the construction that verifies your Maintenance of Traffic, don't you think?

 

[hardworker54]

francesca,

the purpose of the BIM is providing the flow of information about some objects. If you start to use different programs you can get something instead of BIM. You confirm my words - you use some different programs. I uderstand that you can translate the dates from one to inother program but unfortunately it is not BIM.

?ll companies don't recomend to change any versions during the project process. It means that they cannot guarantee the good results in that case. What could we say about combinations of some different programs? It can be even worse!

The transportation is very important but we are talking about all project.

I would lake to hear something about SDS/2 or TEKLA Structures. The companies declare that the program was done according to BIM technology.

 

[francesca]

Information does flow between different software platforms. That is the very purpose of IFC data formats. For instance, from Geopak I take horizontal and vertical alignments. I could use LandXML to import them as objects in Civil 3D. Navisworks then reads the Civil 3D object types and retains the data behind the CAD lines, allowing me to create selection sets that correspond to the tasks in my schedule to create a 4D or 5D model.

Certainly you encounter frustrations when you use different software platforms. Autodesk's 2010 update to Civil 3D is particularly frustrating. If you open a C3D 2009 file in any 2010 package (even plain AutoCAD) it will update your objects to their new format and they are not backwards compatible. You cannot convert to 2009 version objects (just proxy graphics). However, there are always work-arounds. They may be time-consuming, but they will be less time-consuming than having people design in software they are not skilled with.

I suggest you have a look at the buildingSMART alliance and their National Building Information Modeling Standard.

http://www.buildingsmartalliance.org/index.php/nbims/about/

 

[hardworker54]

francesca,

Let say something about small project for example - the steel skeleton of 5 storeys building. There was so many columns, beams and etc. The project was started on SDS/2 of version 6... and in the middle of the way one smart fellow opened 3D model on SDS/2 of version 7...
The model was opened, but locations of elements, connections and details was not translated correct from version 6... to 7...
After that the model was opened again in version 6... Everything was OK.
The SDS/2 declares the acceptability from one version to another. The same time SDS/2 is BIM program. They cannot provide the acceptability inside of their programs.

You told about some digital standard. You are right about the law. But it does not work in most cases in 3D modeling programs today. You cannot translate one 3D model to another without mistakes. How long you are going to improve it? You will never finish the job
Try to imagine that project will be done by engineering company in TEKLA Structures, but a fabricator and a detailer are used SDS/2 or StruCAD.

In that case you have to start the job from the beginning - model, connections and etc.

From other side you have a chance to check up the geometry of the object.

Could you pointed out any company which can provide real BIM services? I think it is not so easy... You should point out some companies which are combined by technology.

 

[francesca]

What you're missing is that the model aggregater programs, e.g. Navisworks are able to read the various models from different software products. The whole point of BIM is to design in your native software product because that's more resource efficient. I have no business editing someone else's design, therefore I only need a read-only platform to view it.

 

[hardworker54]

francesca,

let me ask you. Do you have any experience in 3D modeling for structural steel detailing? Do you know anything about real detailing and real fabrication process?
Yes it is aggregate programs. It calls usually 3D Model program for engineering and detailing. These programs provide all elements, connections, preparations of elements, fasteners, plans, elevations, shop drawings, tables and etc.

I have written the real history about the steel skeleton of 5 storeys building. So, you can put the Navisworks on the shelf and forget about it.

If I understand, you have responsibility for narrow sector of jobs. That is why you think that you provide the concept of the BIM for object's life. Unfortunately it is not the truth. Try to look around and you will understand the aim of the BIM and what does people have now.

 

[Bobber1]

I'm having problems translating my Risa Structural program to Revit because it requires me to upgrade to the latest version of Resa. And updating is not in the budget right now. I've spoken with Risa personnel and other structural analysis program reps and they all told me they are very frustrated with trying to keep their programs compatible with Revit. Apparantly, Autodesk has not been very "user friendly" to them.

Bob G.

 

[francesca]

Does Risa/Revit use LandXML or agcXML? I can't imagine why Autodesk would be friendly to competitors, but their 2010 software is IFC compatible. I'm guessing you have to upgrade Risa to get the IFC compatibility.

Have you seen this:

http://bioinf1.sgul.ac.uk/vclinic/demos/vrml/alpha-01-02/links/cis2.html

 

[hardworker54]

Bobber1,

Could you tell some words about your company? What is a profile of your company? And what type of specific work do you do?


francesca,

Have you ever seen friendly competitors? This is the big problem for all people. Most competitors declare that they support some standards. The same time they provide some obstacles. For example you are not able to print some documents without their programs or viewers, is not it?


What would you say, if you get wrong results for thousands bolt after translation.

I would like to discuss some detailing companies and their policy according to 3D programs and BIM. You can ask me - why we should discuss any detailing company? I answer - the detailing company is the filter before fabrication and erection. The detailing companies catch mistakes by architectural and engineering companies. The detailing companies have to be ready for any especially BIM's collisions.

Please, tell about your experience.

 

[francesca]

hardworker,

I'm not a structural engineer. However, there are free viewers for programs like Navisworks that people can do accurate measurements in. They are easy to use. If you give your detailers the Navisworks files they should be able to use them.

Translating files is not BIM. BIM is collaborative planning, design, construction, operation. It's having a plan in place before you start, and seeing the issues of software compatibility and solving them before the problems threaten costs and schedules. 3D design is not BIM.

 

[hardworker54]

francesca,

I will start from the end of your statement. Yes, right you are! 3D design is not BIM. If we start to split up any rules on each words, we can get a mess. We can not go this way. We try to relay on the statements which are provided by famous company, especially in BIM and 3D modeling programs for engineering: TEKLA, Design Data, AceCad, AUTODESK and etc.

The same time you contradict to yourself. You tell that BIM is collaborative planning, design,...
Let me ask you. Should it be done in one program or in different programs?

If the answer - in different programs - we need to connect all results in one place and we need to translate some results from one to another program. In that case the qualitative translation is a part of BIM process. Is it right?

If the answer - in one program - please, tell me exactly how to provide the line: architectural company - engineering company (structural, electric, hvic, environmental and etc.) - detailing company - fabricator - erector - plumbing and etc.

I don't know the Navisworks program and I didn't see the files which was generated by this program. Can we use this program for structural steel detailing? If you know what is it exactly and how it should be look like? You must provide shop drawings according to the standards of this industry.
You can take a look on some shop drawing at

http://www.ddszone.com

This company started to put drawings on their internet site. It is very expressive. I will try to provide more references, if you interested in.

 

[hardworker54]

Here it is

http://www.nyacad.com

That is another detailing company. You can see drawings on their site. They use SDS/2 and some autolisp programs for AutoCAD.

 

[hardworker54]

Here it is

http://www.computerlinesteel.com.

This company use SDS/2 for detailing.

I cannot find in internet another detailing company -

http://www.assteeldetailers.com.

They provided the detailing services by StruCAD.

 

[hardworker54]

I apologize for some spelling mistakes.
How can I make corrections for submitted articles on the forum?

 

[francesca]

I'm afraid that you can't edit posts after you hit submit, but there is a preview button.

 

[hardworker54]

francesca,

What is your opinion about article dated 22 Mar 10, 0:49:

"If the answer - in different programs...

If the answer - in one program..." ?

You did not say anything about it!

 

[Mixtli]

I beleive BIM is intended to detect interferences between the different trades of the job, and to have all the participants working towards the same goal. BIM has been there for ages, it is only now that it aquires more importance cause we use computers now, but the model before computers was done in paper, cardboard etc. (I actually did one with wood to see how the erecting procedure of a pyramid-like structure would be carried on)
BIM is not more important now than before, it's just a name computer software developers and designers give to the task of digitally manage a project.
Anyways, it doesn't matter what software you use, as long as all the participants are in tune with that software, although it seems Acad's Revit is taking advantage? I don't know, lol.

Regards

 

[Mixtli]

By the way, Francesca, what is a 4D or 5D model? Excuse my ignorance, I guess I have to remove the spiderwebs all over off me, lol.

 

[francesca]

4D = 3 spatial dimensions + time, i.e. creating a video simulation of the construction process for site planning. (Think just-in-time delivery, off-site fabrication, shared staging areas, moving cranes, etc.) and 5D includes cost.

4D:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRIw7645GR8