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How ro protect operating rooms from fire?? 1
- Thread starter mabed
- Start date
stookeyfpe
Specifier/Regulator
If the project is in the US, automatic sprinkler protection is required under the International Building Code. If your project is in the US or another nation and the Life Safety Code (NFPA 101) is referenced as a basis for design, automatic sprinkler protection is required.
Clean agents are not appropriate for a surgery suite. All of the selected agents must be evaluated for Lowest Observed Adverse Effect Level (LOAEL). LOAEL testing never considers humans undergoing invasive surgery. Your proposing to use an agent in an environment that introduces several hazards to the patient and the surgeon. Second is that the discharge from a clean agent must be accomplished in less than 30 seconds - it is an extremely loud and violent process. Third, many clean agents displace oxygen and require a pre-discharge alarm. Would you want to displace oxygen in a surgery suite if your child was undergoing invasive surgery?
Seek professional assistance from a competent fire protection engineer.
Clean agents are not appropriate for a surgery suite. All of the selected agents must be evaluated for Lowest Observed Adverse Effect Level (LOAEL). LOAEL testing never considers humans undergoing invasive surgery. Your proposing to use an agent in an environment that introduces several hazards to the patient and the surgeon. Second is that the discharge from a clean agent must be accomplished in less than 30 seconds - it is an extremely loud and violent process. Third, many clean agents displace oxygen and require a pre-discharge alarm. Would you want to displace oxygen in a surgery suite if your child was undergoing invasive surgery?
Seek professional assistance from a competent fire protection engineer.
Sdpaddler50
Mechanical
Clean agents have their place in some light hazard occupancies like high value computer rooms, but sprinklers are usually installed as well as a back up to protect the building structure if the agent does not achieve suppression. Unfortuntely the sales reps for these gases run around scaring everyone about the dangers of water, which 90% of the time are unfounded.
- Thread starter
- #7
- Thread starter
- #9
I've been reading about this subject and I reached this conclusion:
I'll install both Portable CO2 fire extinguisher and automatic FM200 system with two shutoff valves (one automatic and another manual). In case there is operation running, the FM200 will be shutoff and will depend on CO2 fire extinguisher if fire occurs. If there is no operation the FM200 valves will be opened. In this case the room will be protected with automatic system without endangering the patient and others from the gas.
I'll install both Portable CO2 fire extinguisher and automatic FM200 system with two shutoff valves (one automatic and another manual). In case there is operation running, the FM200 will be shutoff and will depend on CO2 fire extinguisher if fire occurs. If there is no operation the FM200 valves will be opened. In this case the room will be protected with automatic system without endangering the patient and others from the gas.
- Thread starter
- #11
Sdpaddler50
Mechanical
I think you have already been given some sound advice. I was not going to reply anymore to this thread, but since you are talking about people being operated on, i have to chime in here. Having an anutomatic system, where the valve to the FM200 will be "shut off during an operation" is absurd. I can tell you that after about 6 months that procedure will go out the window, and they wont even know where the valve is located. Relying on portable fire extinguishers is also not credible. I investigated a fire once where a plant person pulled the extinguisher off the wall, couldnt get the pin out, became scared as the fire grew in intensity, and then ran out the door. I dont rely on occupants to put out fires, that is what the fire dept is for. Disclaimer, i have very little experience with hospitals, and operating rooms in particular, but that is my .02.
stookeyfpe
Specifier/Regulator
The proposed design is a violation of NFPA 101 and NFPA 2001.
- Thread starter
- #16
can you point where the violation is.
Motorized fire dampers at all air openings and fire rated doors.
I found this article and I think it is helpful to understand what is going on in OR.
fireguy519345
Structural
Amerex has water mist extinguishers rated for Class A and C.
click on the items in the blue box to the left for more information specific to medical fire protection
click on the items in the blue box to the left for more information specific to medical fire protection
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- #19
The biggest market for FM-200 looks like Saudi Arabia, we were looking at a tender from there two months ago, they had 22 rooms with FM-200 in a 30,000 SF facility (every electrical closet had FM-200). Relying on an operating room to be air tight is ridiculous, at discharge, some nurses will just run out the door and call for help, leaving the door wide open. How many SCBA's you would have in the room? can your patient use a SCBA?
When an operation takes place, you have a dozen people in that room that can turn out a fire with FE's. If the room is not occupied, sprinklers are just fine.
The middle east is subject to all sorts of life safety philosophies, British, Australian, US, etc.
They still design fire hose cabinets with 1 1/2" hoses expdecting the user to turn out the fire. They also have smoke exhaust for operating rooms and fire rated ducts (but the medical gases and power not in fire rated enclosures) with 2-hour rated walls in operating rooms.
The truth is, the average engineer in the middle east is about 32 years old (you can check HAAD statistics for expats in the UAE)with about 4 years of experience (two of those being Autocad), and does not have a clue, and he is scared as hell. He is also a mechanical engineer (not a fire protection engineer). And you get some of the weirdest life safety designs around.
They deisgn with FEAR in mind.
Matter of fact, most companies don't even have code books or masterspecs. Most companies have one MEP guy, a Mr. know-it-all of sort who bakes his own bread (does his own CAD). Their drawings don't even have equipment capacities, they don't size a fan, a pump or anything.
And man, do they play like they are big shots.
Mr. mabed, tell me if I am wrong - suggestion, if you use NFPA, fllow th advice of US pratitioners such as the advice you just got here. Most of the guys on this forum are actually fire protection engineers.
When an operation takes place, you have a dozen people in that room that can turn out a fire with FE's. If the room is not occupied, sprinklers are just fine.
The middle east is subject to all sorts of life safety philosophies, British, Australian, US, etc.
They still design fire hose cabinets with 1 1/2" hoses expdecting the user to turn out the fire. They also have smoke exhaust for operating rooms and fire rated ducts (but the medical gases and power not in fire rated enclosures) with 2-hour rated walls in operating rooms.
The truth is, the average engineer in the middle east is about 32 years old (you can check HAAD statistics for expats in the UAE)with about 4 years of experience (two of those being Autocad), and does not have a clue, and he is scared as hell. He is also a mechanical engineer (not a fire protection engineer). And you get some of the weirdest life safety designs around.
They deisgn with FEAR in mind.
Matter of fact, most companies don't even have code books or masterspecs. Most companies have one MEP guy, a Mr. know-it-all of sort who bakes his own bread (does his own CAD). Their drawings don't even have equipment capacities, they don't size a fan, a pump or anything.
And man, do they play like they are big shots.
Mr. mabed, tell me if I am wrong - suggestion, if you use NFPA, fllow th advice of US pratitioners such as the advice you just got here. Most of the guys on this forum are actually fire protection engineers.
Sdpaddler50
Mechanical
cry22- thanks for the insight. I have never worked in the middle east, so this is interesting.
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