sounds like you just went through a year end review NickE....LOL it is that time of year...
It takes more than one persone to have a team. that may sound stupid, but with engineers it is a big problem. I have come to the conclusion that us engineers talk the team talk, but have no clue what to do with teamwork.
In my experience, I have found that I have the best team building when I create an environment that fosters engineers to communicate. In our profession, everyone has an opinion. The only difference between our opinions and non engineers opinions is that our opinions are for the most part very worthy of consideration. Starting to ask others what their opinion is about your opinions is very powerful. It also means that you open yourself up to critism and the other things that may lurk in the professional environments when you open yourself up like that. The thing is, if you open yourself up, that is one large componenet of team work. If you do it right (in our profession doing it as often as you can is the right way) then others will follow, and that is leadership. If you get enough people together to open up to and get them to open up as well, that is teamwork. And if you have a project that was done in this manner, it will have a better chance of being a success.
Sounds like a simple concept, but don't forget that most of us engineers are introverted know-it-alls. Team work to that kind of engineer is getting the 45-45-90 and 30-60-90 triangles to work together. You will need these engineers on your team and it will be your challenge to get them to play team ball. It is a pretty incredible thing to see one of these types of engineers change from being involved in a team work based project that is run well...
What are your thoughts as to why you posted your post? What field are you in? How many people do you work with? Where are you in the pecking order? There are a lot experienced engineers here and between us all, we have been through everything I would suspect.
Team Players? We dont need no stinking team players.
Sorry, couldnt resist. Nick, some of us are destined never to be team players, and as such, need to recgonize the fact and find arenas where our content will not be distilled. That is not to say all Engineers should be like this, for like mere mortals, we are all different.
I found out very early I wished nothing to do with the team concept, and though my pay scale is far lower than it otherwise would be, I sleep quite well knowing my contributions to my industry are appreciated.
BobPE, excellent post! If there is one thing I see as important, it is the effective communication between each and every one of us. A star for you!
I noticed in manager-speak that "team player" can mean one of two things.
a) A request of you to lead others.
b) A request that you follow others.
I use the terms "lead" and "follow" very broadly.
You can lead others by setting good work practices, sticking to good work ethics, mentoring others, etc. Someone wants you to be a leader, or sees that potential in you.
You can follow others by being more social, participating in office functions, solicit the advice of others, etc. Someone sees you as a loner, and wants you brought into the fold.
Depending on what definition of "team player" you are having trouble with will define what actions you should try.
[green]"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."[/green]
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
My question involves as Bob noted; a yearly performance review, last years (may) pointed this out. This year I continually experienced difficulties with a particular division of our company. After 7 months of verbal complaints no resoultion was made. Recently I wrote an e-mail to my boss, their boss, and the boss' boss. I was then informed that even though my e-mail used little strong language, was polite and to the point, and contained supporting documentation of my complaints, that I was out of line and unjustified in making the complaint. Now I am informed that MY position is in jepordy, and that I need to be more of a TEAM PLAYER.
I'm just wondering since I've been told this before, if anyone of us introverted highly opinionated engineers has some helpful hints to being a "Team Player".
Here's my worry:
It seems to me that being a "Team Player" in the modern business environment means being a push over, or yes man, to the boss (or the sales department). Really this is troubling, I am very good at the things that I do. I continually work to improve my capabilities and skills. There really isnt anyone around me that is able to follow a technical discussion at a level above generalities. When I bring up mechanics, or mathe in general I get told that all Im doing is clouding the issue. Or that its just words. Or that (whatever engineering point I raise) is just my opinion.
I guess part of my problem is I dont belive in engineering "opinions". Either it makes sense using provable physics/math/etc or it doesnt.
It might be good to mention that I am (AFAIK) the highest educated engineer at my location. Also I have a large vocabulary that tends to make people think I am talking down to them. I have a really good retention of just about everything I read and tons of diferent experiences from demolitions/construction to live music and theatre audio and lighting.
I tend to prefer working alone since then if anything goes wrong its definately my fault. And if I do it then I know its done. Also I know that all the paper work will be done properly if I do it. Others around here tend to take shortcuts that end up being the long way around and then add excessively to my workload.
(Another possibly important note to this rambling response
out of the others that I work with I probably have the least amount of industry experience. I'm just finishing my 3rd year out of Ms school. (Although I'm not the youngest around.)
Thanks for the time, this is really bugging me since no one really said anything till I started to complain about how I felt I was being treated.
(As a further point: I dont feel that you need to like someone to work with them. At least I hope thats the case cause boy some of the folks I work with are very hard to like.)
"You can follow others by being more social, participating in office functions, solicit the advice of others, etc. Someone sees you as a loner, and wants you brought into the fold."
Here's where I have a big issue. I am VERY different from just about everyone else at my workplace. I dont celebrate the holidays, and find it offensive to be forced to. I am single. I prefer urban areas to sub-urban. I find the statements and attitudes of most of my co-workers to be bigoted, chavenistic, and un-intelligent.
I like the work, its the people that really bug me.
I guess manager-speak using the phrase "team player" can mean a third thing.
c) A request of you to not rock the boat.
You shouldn't become a Yes Man, or ignore things going on at work that are illegal or unsafe, or goes against policy/procedure. If this is the situation that you are finding yourself in, then it's time to look for a new employer.
Perhaps people are seeing the points you raise (engineering related) as being combative instead of questioning or helpful. Perhaps a review of how you are raising your points should be considered. It's one thing to say, "That's a bad design and will never work." Instead it could be rephrased as, "The design should be optimized due to Point A, B and C."
[green]"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."[/green]
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
Nick--I get some of that as a civil engineer (conservative hard-hat field) in the south (conservative and Bible-belted), though not as bad as I hear it is in the petroleum industry. Non-Christian semi-socialist feminist...fun times.
Do you feel your co-workers are unintelligent in their professional work, or just in their sociopolitical attitudes? If the former, you definitely need a new job. If the latter, you need to understand that while you can closet yourself off and just work with no social interaction, that may not be emotionally tolerable for your co-workers.
The biggest adjustment I had to make, even in the north, when I moved from humanities (where I was considered right-wing for voting Democrat) to civil engineering, was "Republicans are people too." It was hard. This is not a slam against Republicans, just a statement about differences of opinion and what I'd been accustomed to until then. I've learned to compartmentalize and just ignore people's political or religious views; those are arguments that can't be won. I have very dear friends in my field now that I simply don't discuss certain topics with. If your problem is primarily social, it is up to you to adjust; you're the one who chose to move into their world.
But if the problem is primarily technical, if these people really don't see the technical value of what you are doing, if they've hired you to be an expert in something and then don't accept your expertise, you need to get out. And get out soon before you have nothing but terrible reviews to show for it.
I'm guessing it's a little of both. The email that you sent, since it was the first step of escalating an orally communicated situation to written form, should have first just gone to your boss, with a question about what needs to be done to get resolution. CCs to god&everyone are more of an aggressive act.
And it sounds like you're coming across as arrogant, even if you don't mean to, which makes people less likely to accept your (technical) authority even in situation where they're paying you to know more than them. If you had better social standing, you could get away with saying, "Look, you pay me to know this stuff, and this is what I'm telling you."
The key is not to act like you know you're smarter than everyone else, except in the act of offering knowledge that you have. I've had to work at this myself. I'm smarter than the average government-employed bear, but although I don't exactly dumb myself down, I go out of my way to be "just one of the folks" when I can. It makes people less threatened and less likely to dig in their heels when I do feel the need to insist on getting my way. It also means that when I get into altercations with another division and someone's boss's boss calls my boss's boss to complain about me, this doesn't wind up on my performance review. And it means that the admin staff doesn't hate me.
If you don't think you can resolve things socially, you need to leave that job and look for one in a different location. Advancement is dependent more on human factors than technical factors, and if you can't handle the human element you'll never get anywhere at that company. Liking the work will only get you so far if you're miserable in every other aspect. (I walk the edge of a similar situation myself.)
Not what you wanted to hear, I suppose, but hey, that's what you pay me the big bucks to tell you.
I'm not sure you've given a full and complete accounting of the situation, but based on what you have said, here are some generalities:
> you seem to be whining, but if you're as smart as you think are, then you should be able to solve the problem(s) at hand.
> no one is good or expert at everything, not even you. There are things that a grade-school graduate with 20 yrs of experience on the line will know that you wouldn't, particularly about the idiosyncrasies of the machines they've used
> a "I'm smarter than you" attitude is bound to rub through and permeate your dealings with others. Get over it and start solving and concentrating on the problem.
> as always, the facts and data are important all else is irrelevant to the technical problem, per se. However, engineering in the broader sense is more than technicality. If you cannot adequately address the concerns of others or cannot adequately sway others to your approach, then you've failed as an engineer.
> listen to ALL input and deal with them. Do NOT dismiss inputs from your "inferiors" out of hand. Unless you are perfect and omniscient, you may be the one heading down the primrose path.
> unless you are willing to do everything, learn to delegate and learn to teach others how to do things. Yes, it's easier to do it yourself, but you'll burn out faster than a two-sided candle and you'll get a "not a team player" label to boot.
> many people require considerably more hand-holding than you're probably willing to give. But, you have to do it and you have to just grit your teeth and get over your superiority.
> if you do not have and show confidence in your team; they will fail. As their leader, their failure is your failure.
> as a leader, do not solve their problem, but guide them to solving it on their own. This gives them ownership and confidence in their solutions.
> group meetings are often a waste of time, but in this instance, getting the team into a room and having them present their ideas and discussing them in an open forum on their own with your guidance can be a great team building method.
> do not attack ideas yourself. But, also, do not allow others to attack ideas. Get all the ideas onto a sheet of a paper with no names attached and discuss them as a group.
> while machine operators may very well be idiot savants, but they might be the only people that know that the machine settings need to be altered from the instructions to achieve the correct result. This may be a problem with the machine or it may be a problem in the process.
As this isnt a plant issue, and I am whining (I just have a really hard time with interpersonal relationships and was looking for some help from other engineers).
Yep the "I am smarter than you" is hard to disguise, hard to deal with on the other side, and puts people off. I'm over it, I just wish others would get over it and get on with the work.
>> or cannot adequately sway others to your
>> approach, then you've failed as an engineer.
The problem to me is:
"There really isnt anyone around me that is able to follow a technical discussion at a level above generalities. When I bring up mechanics, or math in general I get told that all Im doing is clouding the issue. Or that its just words. Or that (whatever engineering point I raise) is just my opinion.
And I tend to try to sway others to my approach using math, science and logic.
since I am the inferior, (or the low man on the pole, or the worker bee) lots of your other comments tend not to apply in this case also.
Also- I dont have anyone to delegate to.
It's not just general ideas. Its engineering decisions about geometry, materials, physics, math, etc. that I tend to contest people on. (see above quote about clouding the issue and "opinions")
TO Hg:
"Do you feel your co-workers are unintelligent in their professional work, or just in their sociopolitical attitudes?"
A little of both. although mostly sociopolitical. I'm willing to look past it I just dont want to be picked on cause I: live in the ghetto, am from a less socially acceptable locale, put myself through school, dont have a wife(etc), and am a-religious.
more info:
I am utilized by my company for various duties. some of these are in my professional field, some are just what I'm good at. In a normal week I may: design a new part using CAD/FEA/CFD. Do materials selection. Re-Build a roller leveler. Perform some fatigue testing. Fix some computers. Process raw material rejections. Test some part mechanically. Do failure analysis. Sweep the floor. Organize and re-file some materials certs. Wire and design a position sensor.
I dont mind donating my time and mind to anything at all around my workplace. Thats why I'm paid the little bucks.
What should I do then to not seem like a "know it all" or arrogant?
I find it especially hard when a problem arises that is within my specialties and my ideas, knowledge, experience, education, skills, and etc. are completely disregarded. Then of course months later when the rest of the "opinions" dont work, the automatic emergency becomes my responsibility.
(Hmm.. I hope my replies are helping (bring me more suggestions) cause theres some significant time into this now.)
Nick,
Just a few thoughts to add to those above - hope they help flesh out the issues.
1. We out here in Eng-tips-land cannot specifically weigh in on the validity of your difficulties with the division. And so much really rides on how valid your technical views are related to their "opinions" in regards to the success or failure of your company. There are many cases where a non-technically supported opinion has wisdom and validity over and above the technical field. In fact, your supervisors may have loads of non-technical experience that, despite the technical "facts", out-weigh any other considerations. They may be carrying the RISK in that they may own shares of the company and have the gray hairs that can many times see the bigger picture/concepts involved. (technical people many times don't see these bigger issues - I know as I am one).
2. I agree that sending emails up the chain may have been a bit over the top - your immediate supervisor should be your only contact in these matters unless the supervisor is the prime issue involved...then you should step just once over them to the next in line.
3. The only other issue would be your decision to keep on pluggling along with this company or move on. This is where "you have to know" what is best for you in terms of potential advancement, how much you're learning, etc.
OK, specifically I guess you rocked the boat by formalizing your difficulties with the other division by sending the note round. This is what is known as a CLM (career limiting move). Don't do things like that. The most difficult but most successful response is to identify whoever is the prime mover in that division, and go and talk to them occasionally about your projects, and how they affect his division. You still have time to do this.
In order for your analytical abilities to be taken seriously when everyone else is in headless chicken problem solving mode you HAVE to provide usable results. Quite often you'll have to agree to some idiotic (in your opinion) short term actions, just make sure that you are also acquiring the data you need for a sensible long term solution. That's the quid pro quo in teams. The same guy who wants to solve it by the feeling in the seat of his pants may just be the same one that is collecting the data you need.
Incidentally it can take 6 months to solve some solvable problems. Our manufacturing guys need solutions within 2 days, otherwise we run out of room to store defective cars. So our short term fixes have to be made using inadequate data.
You said you were the highest-educated engineer there, but not the only one, right? Are none of these engineers in the discussions where "there really isnt anyone around me that is able to follow a technical discussion at a level above generalities"?
May I ask what kind of company needs a metallurgist but has such a seemingly low level of technical function?
It seems strange that they would hire you for your knowledge and then not want to hear it. This suggests that something else is wrong. Or are the people you work with not the people who hired you?
On the social front...
Actually I guess there's the sociopolitical front and the intellectual-vs.-people-skills front.
On the first, if the attitudes are indeed as you describe, there's not much you can do to avoid that, short of leaving. (A friend in a very conservative workplace got a random church flyer and put it up in her office just to get people off her case. I couldn't have done that.) If you do choose to grin and bear it, then do just that--grin. And bear it. Perform a little social engineering. Bring in a dozen doughnuts to share once in a while. Put up a picture of your parents and siblings, or your dog. Buy the damn girl scout cookies. It's like shaking hands and kissing babies. This is politics, man. It is your choice to remain in that social situation and it is thus your obligation to make the best of it, meaning find redeeming qualities in your co-workers, some form of common ground--or find ways to demonstrate to them that you have common ground with them, that you are people too. Otherwise, start your job search in a more cosmopolitan locale.
On the second, there is a difference between knowing more than people and being better than they are. Think of them as uninformed rather than stupid. (This can be hard in the face of what sometimes appears to be willful ignorance, and I have to admit I do have an "unforgivable moron" list. But most people are on the "less informed than I am about this particular subject area" list.) Work up ways to explain fairly common technical situations in layman's terms. Think of it not as baby talk, but as translating into another language--itself another intellectual challenge. Think of it as teaching, which is always a very educational experience for the teacher. Find things you might be able to ask them about, and let them tell you something for a change (but don't play dumb, because they'll see right through it). A little "aw shucks" goes a long way. Take any opportunity you can to display humility.
Risker strategies to try (which violate "don't rock the boat" to some extent) would be asking the others to explain why you are wrong, instead of continuing to try to explain why you are right, and also talking to your boss about the issues you've raised here--they hire you for your knowledge and then disregard it; what do they really expect of you?
This might be completely off the wall, but how about (working it through the boss of course) offering a little seminar in what it is you do? Maybe "everything you never wanted to know about metallurgy in 90 minutes" or something like that? Something you can bring doughnuts to?
Again, it's important to get everyone in on the action, particularly in your environment. Get the ideas documented, formulate a plan to test the solutions and move on.
I was involved in a yield problem at a previous job. It was hot because our sister division was using our production line to produce a part for their product launch. Our yield clearly sucked and apparently had been that way for a while, masked by other problems. This particular chip accentuated the problem. A "tiger team" was formed with a bunch of bigwigs and bigshots with lots of off-the-wall ideas. As it turned out, IBM guys had the same problem nearly a decade prior and it turned out that some lowly process engineer decided to use reciprocity to lower the temperature on a critical process and increase the time to compensate. Presumably, that resulted in less maintenance on the furnace, but shot the yield to heck.
Nonetheless, we slogged through 4 months of experiments and process changes that all yielded zip, but had to be carried through because the suggestions came from VP's and the like.
And that may be the operating mode of your company. But, in the end, so long as the problem gets solved, you've done your job. Whether not public recognition of your contribution is critical to your self image is something that you'll need to assess.
Oh, yeah. I meant to say something about documentation. Again kind of risky because it needs to be done the right way.
When you recommend a course of action and it is not followed, and a problem results, is there any way to do any kind of "what have we learned here" without it sounding too much like "I told you so"? Some kind of analysis of the emergency, what was done to solve it, and what changes should be made to prevent it from happening again, without actually pointing any fingers? (If anything like this is done, it should probably officially come from the boss and not direct from you.)
Seems like you are getting some good response, this is a difficult problem encountered by ALL engineers at one time or another, so I hope you get the feeling you are not alone....
With respect to your comment that you do not have anyone to delegate to, I would say you could be wrong. It seems like you have a whole company to delegate to. Try this: Get your boss involved in a project and have him do a task, with a scope, budget and deadline. Now, with what you said about yourself, do not pick a task you know your boss will fail at, but rather one that he can contribute in a positive way. I do this all the time with boss's that become disconnected and abusive. The feeling on contributing to a problem is in fact a benefit of team work.
Another good example is the team meeting. I agree, team meeting held by non-engineers are for the most part worthless, but ones held by engineers can be a great venue to foster teamwork. In your next meeting, pick a problem that you think you have the answer to, run the meeting so that you can guide someone else to come up with the answer and give them ownership of it. You will be amazed at the increase in quality of people contributions when they know they will be recognized.
As for social skills, do a web search for Myers-Briggs. this is a mundane pshycological classification system, but it fits well to the engineering industry. It can help you understand with whom you are communication with and how to tailor your communications to make sense to them. It will also allow you to calssify yourself as others see you so that you can be aware of just who you appear to them.
As for your email, sounds like a knee-jerker to me. When you communicate at those levels and you want to present a problem, you better present a solution or you will be in trouble. Did you present a solution as to how you were going to improve you teamwork skills? It is not too late to sdo so, in fact I think you have the upper hand, prepare a solution and request your bosses input and assistance in implementing it.
I respectfully disagree with MadMango in their defination of management team work. True team work is something you create, with the goal of say: having a higher quality project. Being requested to do team work is not what team work is about as in "being requested" to be a leader or follower.
Start out small since this obviously would seem to be a foreign concept to you and your potential team members. You will get the hang of it. Figure our a gage to monitor your projects performance because of team work...ie schedule, innovation, money savings...etc, always give tasks with scope, schedule, and fee. Share these performance indicators with everyone in the team. It gets downright infectious when smart people see improvements thay were a part of. The stupid people, well, they will become your challenge...
You sent an email to your boss and also cc'd it up the line and you are wondering why your boss is questioning you !
Yikes, Id say that you are pretty lucky still to be in the job after a stunt like that.
Work tends to be a game that is played and this game has so many rules that sometimes we dont even understand. Putting an email like this together and firing it off even if you had a valid point is what I would term to be career suicide.
Bosses HATE this, for one you have exposed your immediate boss and then his boss aswell and this causes problems in that they have to do damage limitation. If they do this be prepared as they will not hold back and will do what ever they can to lessen the impact on themselves. You are pulling them in and making them vulnerable and that scares the pants off of them. And it will make you many enemies. If you plan on a long term career there not a good move.
Email correspondance is a mine field and it is one that you can easily very easily lose control of very quickly. It would have been better to sit in with said boss and have a discussion with him and then follow it through that way. Right or wrong if you did that to me I know where my loyalties would lie and that would be with preserving myself....
