How to develop a P&ID schemes 7

[Alchemist01]

Hi all,

I am a new in this part and I would like to know how I can develop a P&ID schemes. If you can suggest a book or a yoututbe chanel for this that would be great. I am really suffering to find a proper answer for this topic.

Thank you in advance for your support.
Regards,
Alchemist01

 

[shvet]

Do you ask a forum member to compress >40 years of his/her tertiary education and work experience to a couple of sentences? A couple of videos or hundreds of sheets - no matter. Do you ask how to draw of a process scheme or how to develop a process? What are you exactly looking for?

Imagine - you are coming to a producer school and ask them for a link to a youtube channel how to create The Godfather.

 

[Alchemist01]

Dear Shvet,

Thanks for your reply. This is what I actually looking for to create a P&ID you need to know some stuff. I am really having difficulty to understan what I should know. I am mechanical enjineer and can create a CAD drawings. But i will work on a process engineering project. And i even do not know where to start. For cad drawings you need to know engineering graphics course and then you can understand how to draw it. But for p&id i have no information which couse i should know. Please help on that.that is what i am looking for which class should one take to know how to create p&ids.
Thanks
Alchemist01

 

[Alchemist01]

Dear Shvet,

I am trying to understand how to develop a process.
Thanks

 

[LittleInch]

Alchemist,

P&IDs are usually created by the Process Engineer.

Process Engineering is commonly the result of someone undertaking a degree in Chemical Engineering or being exposed to piping and Instrumentation design for many years.

But are you looking to just draw P&IDs written by someone else or to create one from a blank piece of paper / blank screen?

Try typing "P&ID the basics" into a search engine of your choice and start reading and watching if that's the level you're interested in.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[Alchemist01]

Dear Littleinch,
Thank you for your answer. I want to create a p&id by myself but do now know where to start. It is nice answer but it does not help me at all. If you can suggest one book to me that will help me a lot. Thanks.

 

[LittleInch]

Well you could do worse than this

http://integrated.cc/cse/Instrumentation_Symbols_and_Identification.pdf

Basically all P&ID symbols and the way to show them originate with ISA. Lots of people do this badly or wrong, but learn the basics.

Just start with something simple.

SO do a tnak to tank transfer line

Start with a tank, then add a pump then another tank.
Now start adding valves, and instruments to control or monitor the flow - pressure, temperature, level and flow are your key ones.

Then add some actuated valves or control valves.

Decide if you want some shutdown or trip logic or to show alarms for different things like overfilling the tank.

Get the drift?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[LittleInch]

Also look at this lot and buy a book or two from them.

https://www.isa.org/

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[Alchemist01]

Thank you a lot. Your link is very helpfull. But could you tell me what is the theory behind? Which subject is needs to be studied in chemical engineering in order to be able to prepare p&ids? I am good at listening to tutorials and I have a website where i look to some tututorials. Maybe you know this website:

https://nptel.ac.in/

Can you suggest me the subject? Thanks

 

[MJCronin]

To all:

IMHO,.... and this is how Western civilization ends, as the Third World takes over

" ....to create a P&ID you need to know some stuff ...."

" .... I am mechanical enjineer and can create a CAD drawings"

"...If you can suggest one book to me that will help me a lot"


Thank god this person has not decided to pursue a career in Medicine and become a Surgeon. He would be running around looking for that one book or YOUTUBE Video that would tell him how to perform brain or heart surgery

He also seems to be quite proud of his abilities and vast skills in listening to tutorials ..... Hmmmmmmmmm ??!!!

I am also a University degreed and State Licensed "Engineer".... and I know how to spell my profession properly.

All of this makes me very sad ...

MJCronin
Sr. Process Engineer

 

[Alchemist01]

Sorry for that but this is what your education probably made it. As I have an international degree which did not educate me how to do p&ids. But in the work they ask from you only about to create a p&ids. Instead bleaming me you could suggest something.

 

[SuperSalad]

P&IDs are an integral part of just about all of a chemical engineering curriculum, in my experience. There isn't one course, study, or subject that focusses on them. P&IDs are part of all of them in order to convey systems. They are used to illustrate and you simply learn how to read them as you progress. Once you are able to read them, it is a fairly natural progression to write them.

To get a basic handle on them, you need to understand that every single piece of equipment in a process has a function and should be represented somehow. I'm not saying every bolt and rivet along the way, but each distinct mechanism, instrument, etc. that is part of a system should be part of the diagram. Then it is learning how to represent them and how to arrange the drawing in a way that is understandable, readable, and not an indecipherable rats' nest of lines and symbols.

Andrew H.

http://www.MotoTribology.com

 

[MJCronin]

These books will tell you everything you need to know about Chemical Engineering and PID development:

https://www.amazon.com/Plant-Design-Economics-Chemical-Engineers/dp/0072392665

https://www.amazon.com/Piping-Instr...gineering"+P&ID&qid=1633450091&s=books&sr=1-2

MJCronin
Sr. Process Engineer

 

[TiCl4]

Alchemist01,

If you are wanting to create P&IDs for a new process, forget about it. P&IDs naturally flow from an established process, which, if in development, is often expressed as a PFD - a process flow diagram. This diagram is used as the blueprint for fleshing out the P&ID by those KNOWLEDGEABLE in the process, as much of the development of details stems from process requirements. Knowing the process requirements usually requires one to have a significant familiarity with the process. To have this familiarity, one must not only have studied the underlying principles (thermodynamics, fluid mechanics, etc), but you should also have relevant and practical experience. I would never trust a newly degreed chemical engineer to develop P&IDs alongside a new process, much less a MechE with exactly 0 experience.

New engineers usually learn gradually by updating existing P&IDs on an existing with the approval of a supervisor. Trying to create a P&ID ex ante with no prior experience is folly. There are many, many things that you simply WON’T know as a new process guy (pipe codes/design standards, pressure relief requirements, DB&B needs, insulation requirements, etc).

My advice is that you refuse this assignment. You simply are not qualified.

 

[shvet]

@MJCronin
The point is the managers/principal of the topicstarter as he/she is just an executor. Job market value of professionals rises as far as more such persons do process design incorrectly. The more investors&operators struggle with improper design the better for those who know how do it properly. We should promote such people rather than demotivate them.

The more situations like this arise the more a correct result seems a miracle. You can everything cause you are an expert.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg&list=PLKlTnphWMK_ptOjZYlQO8oXFzyp23ZB9M&index=1

@ Alchemist01
Guides how to draw a P&ID:
1/ Widely used standards:
- ANSI/ISA 5.1
- ISO 10628
- ISO 14084
- ISO 14617
- ISO 15519
2/ Local industry practices:
- PIP PIC001
- ExxonMobil IP 1-1-1 / GP 01-01-01
- Technip JSD000
- BP GP 08-01
- FosterWheeler LRQA/PEG/GEN.01
- JGC 210-120-1-12, ...-46, ...-49, ...-70, ...71
- Samsung SEM-9461
- Shell DEP 01.00.02.11

Guides how to create a process:
1/ Ludwig's Applied Process Design for Chemical and Petrochemical Plants
2/ Technip's Petroleum Refining
3/ Perry's Chemical Engineer's Handbook
4/ Industry Majors' Internal Design Practices - ExxonMobil, Technip and JGC are recommended for a beginner

All of them can be found in google, try to search.

 

[TiCl4]

Shvet,

The resources you recommended contain material that is taught during a the entirety of a 4-year ChemE degree (and then some!). From my understanding, he is involved with both process design and simultaneous P&ID development. He has said he has no experience in either one. How do you suppose that he will be able to condense 4 years of taught classes as well as years of direct experience to perform this task?

Would you trust a rookie ChemE with no apparent supervision to create P&IDs for a newly developed process? Would you trust his design enough to build the process based on those P&IDs?

Major design firms will require final P&ID approval to be done by someone quite experienced, often a P.E., for a reason.

If he has an experienced process guy working with him that can guide/oversee him in both the P&ID development as well as all the nitty gritty details of process development, that’s one thing. However, he is here on Eng-Tips asking for that very same help, which suggests to me he is being asked to do this solo with no prior experience.

My recommendations are not made from a superiority/gatekeeper complex. There are very real safety issues that can easily be overlooked by a new designer. Bad process design can get people killed.

 

[shvet]

How do[tt] you suppose that he will be able to condense 4 years of taught classes as well as years of direct experience to perform this task?

As for me - I would bet the topicstarter has no chance. But the topicstarter is not forbidden to try. One should trust him/herself experience more than statement of an anonym from a public forum about his/her capabilities, shouldn't he/she? For an engineered mind an experiment is the only mean for cognition of reality.

Would you trust a rookie ChemE with no apparent supervision to create P&IDs for a newly developed process? Would you trust his design enough to build the process based on those P&IDs?

I would not. But his/her manager/principal did. The context of this decision is not clear. May be the topicstarter is the only engineer all around that place.

There[/tt] are very real safety issues that can easily be overlooked by a new designer. Bad process design can get people killed.

Undoubtedly so. But we do not know the context of core situation. There are places where loss of lives/health of 2-5 underpaid workers does not affect bottomline of account.

 

[ashtree]

It is unclear to me whether the original post is being asked to create a P and ID as a design process or to document an existing process in the form of a P and ID.

If it is the first they are trying to start at step 10 instead of step 1 and probably has a lot to learn and may well need a lot more information than what is being provided. Not only they will need need to know about the process requirements there will be safety systems, legal requirements (perhaps), process control and monitoring, just to name a few. Even if the process is relatively simple there can be many requirements.

However if they are merely trying to document something that already exists, the client or the company may already have some guidance docs on how P and IDs should be formulated.
If Not Little Inch's reference above is a good start.

Regards
Ashtree
"Any water can be made potable if you filter it through enough money"