How to educate oneself on basic hydraulic controls/systems 3

[Rockjoint]

I am wanting to attempt attaching a small rotary mower, powered by hydraulic motor (not PTO), to a rubber-tire backhoe in place of the bucket (such that I can change from mower to bucket as desired). I am trying to make a poor-man's batwing mower, realizing all of the limitations of my desired design.

My problem is that I am electronic, NOT hydraulic/pneumatic in skills. I realize that there are a lot of similarities between the different systems, but I need to know where I can go to educate myself on hydraulic systems. I need to learn about basic hydraulic controls, the valving, etc. in order to figure out what I need to obtain and then how to make it work.

I am guessing that I will wind up with a system that is similar to that for a typical hydraulic-operated log splitter. I will only be able to move the mower in the same manner as the bucket, so that limits what I must have. I am planning on using some sort of quick-disconnects on my hoses to facilitate changing from bucket to mower. I may need a larger hydraulic reservoir, so I have to learn more about what I need. Any advice or suggestions will be most welcomed.

 

[unclesyd]

Here is some information that might be a little help in getting you get started.

http://www.hydraulicsupermarket.com/technical.html

 

[Rockjoint]

Thank you for the reply. I appreciate the link.

 

[unclesyd]

Here is another good practical information source book. Look down to Audel Pumps and Hydraulics book. Inexpensive but very good.

http://www.wiley.com/WileyCDA/Secti...=audel&sortSpec=score desc&subject=all&page=1

 

[budt]

Rockjoint;

This is the answer I put on the Fluid Power Professionals Forum at Engineering Tips.

Get and read and try to understand the information in all the books that teach hydraulics.

Take all the classes you can find and ask a lot of questions of the instructors.

If you can find someone with knowledge in hydraulics try to get them to mentor you if that is possible. They probably have not been schooled in hydraulics, except the College of Hard Knocks, but they can be an expert in a plant that has no other knowledgeable person.

Learn schematic symbols, the hardware they represent and their primary function in a circuit so you will be able to diagnose a circuit from a piece of paper not by trying to look at the machine.

Work on as many hydraulic circuits as you can and try to fully understand how they should perform so you will know what to do when they are not performing as designed.

If possible get a job as a hydraulic salesman so you will be forced to understand the equipment you sell and design circuits for your customers. I imagine you have found there are very few persons in industry that have any background in hydraulics and pneumatics which means the salesman or the manufacturer of hydraulic equipment designs most circuits.

Electrical engineers and maintentenace persons take many years of training to learn their feild. After training they work on nothing but electrical equipment and keep abreast of new innovations as they come from the suppliers. They attend seminars, have a lot of forums to ask questions and give feedback and keep up with their work because their life can depend on it.

Hydraulic people have no such training and except for a very few companies (less than 100 in the states I would guess) there is not even a title for a person with hydraulics and pneumatics (Fluid Power) as their main function.

Fluid Power has muddled along for years and been held back because other means of transferring energy has replaced it every place possible. This has happened because other fields have trained persons who know what they are doing and can prove it on paper and in hardware.
_________________


Bud Trinkel CFPE
HYDRA-PNEU CONSULTING, INC.
fluidpower1 @ hotmail.com

http://www.fluidpower1.us

 

[Rockjoint]

budt,

Thank you for the reply. I appreciate the points you made. There is nothing like experience, for sure.

 

[danhelgerson]

Rockjoint,

I would be happy to give you some help on this project. As you ask questions, I will give you answers and the reasons for the answers. That will help you build a knowledge base. I will also give you links to products that will meet your requirements. I can also provide information on reading and producing proper fluid power circuit diagrams.

You can write to me at Dan@cfpsos.com. Let me be of help.


Dan Helgerson CFPS, AFPI, AJPP

http://www.cfpsos.com

 

[Beggar]

Please don't do this offline. Actually, this post is likely to get flagged and taken down. I hope they don't kill the whole thing because it would be very interesting to watch and participate.

--------------------
Bring back the HP-15

http://www.hp15c.org

--------------------

 

[budt]

Beggar;

You are answering the "Flagger," "Taker Downer." Dan is the host for this forum.


Bud Trinkel CFPE
HYDRA-PNEU CONSULTING, INC.
fluidpower1 @ hotmail.com

http://www.fluidpower1.us

 

[Beggar]

Oh good.

Then he'll keep this discussion in the public forum rather than taking it offline.

I'm of the impression that "Eng-Tips" doesn't permit offline referrals. Perhaps I'm wrong.

--------------------
Bring back the HP-15

http://www.hp15c.org

--------------------

 

[budt]

I believe you are thinking of anoother forum.


Bud Trinkel CFPE
HYDRA-PNEU CONSULTING, INC.
fluidpower1 @ hotmail.com

http://www.fluidpower1.us

 

[TBP]

The "Audels" book referred to above is a very good book, as is another inexpensive book "IPTs Industrial Hydraulics Handbook". IPT publishes a series of books like this on a variety of topics. They're both excellent and inexpensive.

http://www.iptbooks.com

 

[danhelgerson]

Let me explain. I was reviewing some of the information being given to this request and I was concerned that it may have proved to be discouraging to “Rockjoint”. One of the primary reasons I started and maintain this forum is to promote the proper use of Fluid Power. It appeared to me that “Rockjoint” had a relatively simple need but was being bombarded with information that may have seemed overwhelming.

At this point this point I have only received a “Thank you” from “Rockjoint” and I sent a quick note with some basic formulas as a starting point for him.

I am grateful for the reaction to my comment. I will keep my communications open for all to see.


Dan Helgerson CFPS, AFPI, AJPP

http://www.cfpsos.com

 

[Beggar]

Thanks, Dan.

I'm new to fluid power (just ordered the Audel book) and eager to learn everything I can. I learn best by looking at examples and participating in dialog. Hence the concern that the discussion might go offline.

--------------------
Bring back the HP-15

http://www.hp15c.org

--------------------

 

[Rockjoint]

I give sincere thanks to each and every contributor on this discussion forum. THANKS TO ALL!

-Rockjoint

 

[twomules]

If doing it on your own...

In addition to Audel (pretty good in their own right...)

Womack Educational Publications,
This is how I got up to speed for some
our offshore submerged applications.
Womack is a fluid power, (pneu and hyd)
supply house out of Texas.
Good tables and Check lists in their books.
I purchased the whole series for short money.
They use to give away handy "pocket" handbooks.
On the Web...

Vickers use to offer a correspondence or
short course on Hydraulics.

General Physics, a technical short course house
may have some good stuff on this as well.
They use to have some pretty good plant oriented stuff.

Steffen, a Stanley air and hydraulic rep
out of Missouri may have some good advice
Family owned outfit. Have taken their short course.
Dave Kaplan schooled as an EE, knows this stuff quite
well and can relate it to folks existing backgrounds.
On the Web...

Marine and Farm hardware supply houses are a good bet.

Pardon any indirect plugging for vendors.

I agree with others ...
Not something taught very well (as in an applied manner)
at engineering colleges or voc/trade schools.
People use this technology for the flexibility,
reasonable economics, power to high force conversion.
Efficiency is seldom a strong point, but ease of
directing energy where you need is hard to beat.

Myself ...
I keep waiting for lower cost "water driven" tooling.
However, the oil based systems are so well established as
seen in their relative economics and performance. As synthetic materials like "Vespel" other polyimides
and ceramics improve, water as the wk'g fluid may happen.
W/O and with anti-freeze some of water's luster is lost.

Good luck.

 

[95yukon]

Rockjoint,

I agree with twomules comments where he states that hydraulics is not taught that well in engineering schools, but I've been fortunate to be on both sides of the fence. I started out by getting my associates in diesel mechanics which provided a hands on approach to all aspects of heavy machinery including hands-on hydraulics training with theory from a former Air Force hydraulics instructor (growing up on a farm doing mechanic work from the time I was able to hold a wrench never hurt either). I worked on farm equipment where we got more factory training and then in the oil industry on machines that were all hydraulic (with a lot of electro-hydraulics).

I went back and picked up my BSME and have worked in the hydraulics industry ever since (in hydraulic system design). Finding engineers to work in hydraulic systems design is very hard right now - there are very few with experience. One noteworthy school that teaches hydraulics well is the Milwaukee School of Engineering, I never went there but work with graduates who did and they know hydraulics.

Don't rule out local junior colleges. Many have evolved into first class training centers. I've been working with colleagues to develop hydraulics training courses where I work, but so far it is only internal, so I couldn't help you there.

 

[danhelgerson]

I have spoken to many plant managers about their Fluid Power Systems. I ask them if they would allow anyone but an electrician to open up a panel to address an electrical problem. I then ask why they think nothing of hiring some person off the street, hand him a wrench and say, “Go fix my Fluid Power System.” The manager always gives me a surprised look and then agrees that he has never thought of getting qualified Fluid Power people on his staff.

This is a problem that the Fluid Power Industry has created for itself. Fluid Power systems have been sold primarily through distribution. Because the customer did not really understand the “magic” of Fluid Power, the distributor would “design” the system for the customer. There was no charge for the “design” because the distributor needed to do the “design” to make the sale.

What has evolved is a system where the customer has a dependence on the distributor for Fluid Power expertise while the distributor may or may not be competent to provide the best Fluid Power practices. The distributor wants to sell the stuff on his shelf whether or not it is best for the customer.

Until Industry begins demanding of its suppliers that only certified people call on them and demand from the Tech schools that they provide competent Fluid Power professionals, there will continue to be a lack of education being offered.


Dan Helgerson CFPS, AFPI, AJPP

http://www.cfpsos.com