How to prepare and search for your first job (dos and do nots) 6

[PropulsionMan]

Greetings all, this is my first post. I've been looking for an engineering forum forever, glad I finally found one, dont know how I missed this. I in fact created my own forum, though it's so hard to start online communities these days that I gave up in the end.

Anyways, a bit of background to my situation, and I'm seeking some advice on the matter.

Basically, I went to study Aerospace Engineering in the US for 6 years, got Masters and Bachelors, looked for about 2 years for jobs in the US and Canada in the aerospace field, got a few interviews, and they always ended up the same way. I could not work because I did not have either US or Canadian Citizenship or permanent residency.

Why did I "waste" so much time looking for a job that I pretty much knew I couldnt find? Well, after 6 years of hell in school, I didnt look for jobs 24/7, so I took some time off if you will, traveling a lot and spending time with friends etc. IN between having fun, I'd search for jobs. And I did land a few interviews, including 2 of my top dream companies in my chosen field, 2 of the biggest North American aircraft engine manufacturers. Both got me to interview with them, but both said no because they wanted at least permanent residency.

So at last, I have completely shifted my focus to look for propulsion jobs in Europe, where I'm legally allowed to work cause I'm a EU citizen.

I specialized in gas turbine and rocket propulsion, specifically in aerothermal analysis, combustion, heat transfer and performance analysis. And I have 2 big questions:

a)How do you prepare for your dream job (or your first job in general). I.e. do you try to learn the CAD or CFD software teh companies you want to work with use? Do you read textbooks all day and review material? Do you randomly pick engineering problems and try to solve them? Learn FORTRAN or C and do problems, do CFD, do CAD on your spare time? Is any of this really worth all the time it'd take?

Ok...that's a big question made up of smaller ones

b)Can your first job realistically be your dream job? The job you've been studying specifically for a long time? Or do you have to settle pretty soon with whatever you find, and then keep looking while you work?

c)Say you have a dream job (mine is working with rocket or gas turbine propulsion) do you have to start working in something related to it? So say you want to work with gas turbine engines, but cant find work with the aircraft engine manufacturers, do you HAVE to find a job say in the turbine industry? Say steam turbines for power generation, or pumps etc so that you can build experience relevant and closely related to gas turbine propulsion and rocket systems? Like say you worked 4 years with materials or structural engineering for a car company. Would this time be wasted if you wanted to be a combustion engineer or a aerothermal engineer on a gas turbine engine company?

Sorry for the length of my post,

thanx in advance,

PropulsionMan

 

[GregLocock]

b) I doubt it, unless your dream job is fetching coffee, photocopying and filing


Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[ctopher]

Only a few out of college land their dream job at first. Sometimes you take what you can, gain experience, then move on. Sometimes you may work a few jobs until your dream job lands in you lap.

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Apr 30, 2008)

 

[COEngineeer]

10 days of vacation per year sounds good to you? I would work in EU for sure . If 10 days of time off sounds like a dream job for you... good luck .

Never, but never question engineer's judgement

 

[PropulsionMan]

Thanx for the encouraging words lol

10 days off? Where did you get that?

Ok, so it's hard to get your dream job right off the bat. Well then, what's the best way to get it? Logically you'd want jobs that are related so that your experience can count. I mean, I dont think 10 years in electrical engineering would help at all in a combustion position. That's an extreme, but it starts getting harder when the line between what counts as experience and what doesnt is harder to determine.

See I have the feeling the more time passes doing something not related to what you really want to do, the more you forget your school stuff (which is related to a big extent, IF you want to do exactly that type of work) and the harder it will be to get that job that will require say 5 years experience in turbomachinery?

Not sure if I'm making myself clear...I guess the downside of being an engineer, work better with forumulas and greek letters than english

PropulsionMan

 

[PSE]

I would agree that it is unlikely to get your "dream" job immediately. You will have this notion as to what it is and reality can be quite different. The dream job represents your initial career plan. Decide how to get there and what skills/experiences you may need. Then look for opportunities that match up. Basically I just agreed with what you have already indicated as the logical path (that 6 years of hell amounted to some analytical skills ).

Also note that dreams may change/evolve as your life does. A lot of external forces directly impact your career and some of these will be wholly out of your control.

Regards,

 

[KENAT]

A.)I didn't really prepare for my first job except for having a relevant degree and being an aviation enthusiast (up to a poin, I never collected tail codes just read a lot of books & magazines and attended a few air shows). Having CAD skills may help but a lot of Engineers don't do much CAD, it gets done by designers/drafters/CAD Jockeys/CAD monkeys in many places.

B.) I had wanted to be RJ Mitchell or Sidney Camm or Kelly Johnson etc, ended up working on airborne weapons, containers, trolleys... I settled but then it turned out as my role at the place expanded that it kind of became close to my dream job. I didn't get to design entire A/C but did get to work in that field.

C.) I'd guess the more related you first job the better but working in some field of engineering is probably better than a bunch of completely unrelated temp jobs or whatever you're doing.

As I've posted before, I got my first job by going to the library, getting a directory of UK aerospace companies and applying to every one that looked vaguely interesting.


KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[KENAT]

Forgot, try joining a relevent industry body or something. For instance I was a member of the Royal Aeronautical Society, I should have made more use of it than I did and attended more meetings.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[Helicopterjunky]

What about Rolls-Royce, CFM, or Airbus. Those sound like your dream jobs?

 

[PropulsionMan]

Yes, working with any propulsion company would be a dream. It's what I studied, it's what I want to do. (although my hobbies in 3D animation and VFX have made me realize I love that stuff a lot too).

The problem is there is like a dozen engine manufacturers on the entire planet. So while like electrical engineers might have say 30,000 companies to choose from, a propulsion engineer has like a dozen or so companies to choose from! THat's part of the problem.

Yes, I'd love to work for GE, Pratt, RR, CFM, SNECMA, Rockedine, TRW, Aerojet. I tried applying to all the US ones over the past 2 years, but they only take US/Canadian citizens.

Right now I'm starting to look to the EU companies. But then again, there is so few of them, I'll have to start looking for sub-contractor companies and companies not related to propulsion at all just in case the propulsion companies say no.

Airbus would not be a dream job. They dont build engines. They ask RR or GE or CFM to build them. Same with Boeing and all the other aerospace companies that tell propulsion companies to build their engines.

~PropulsionMan

 

[KENAT]

Propulsion, airframe companies, or systems integrators as they now like to be called, will still most likely have some propulstion specialists on board to help with integration etc.

As I mentioned in my other thread, look at some of the sub contractors to RR, CFM etc. You may be able to work your way up.

Look at research opportuniites, Qinetiq, DSTL etc or similar government agencies in other European countries.

Sure there are only 3 really big Jet Engine makers and a few more mid sized ones but there is a whole supply & customer chain that may need at least some of you skills.

There may not be 30,000 but there are a lot more than a dozen potential employers that would value your degree.

Honestly, you're starting to sound very naive and immature, neither of which will help you get your first job.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[IRstuff]

Don't sweat the math or the programming or the CAD. What you might have learned would simply ease the transition, but don't expect to be productive on the first day or even the first month.

So, apparently your academic credentials are good enough to get interviews. This is a big plus, there are other posters that seem able to wallpapered their apartments with rejection letters. I would likewise not sweat getting the EXACT alignment between education and job. First, a GIANT chunk of your education will NEVER be used; get used to that. Second, you may find that something related is more interesting than what you learned in school; been there, done that, my BSEE hasn't really been exercised ever, actually.

While you're looking, look for ways to combine your likes and your education. Sounds like there some possibility of a fit, like perhaps a data visualization program?

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[PropulsionMan]

Naive an immature? lol

I did not go through 6 years of hell to just get any engineering job my friend. I studied aerospace propulsion to get a job in aerospace propulsion designing and analysing aerospace propulsion systems. That is what keeps me going, my interest in aerospace propulsion. I would not be in engineering if I had to design a washing machine.

And yes, I have very limited industry knowledge. I've had my head buried in books for 6 years, so I dont really know that much about industry. But I dont think you can say that just because I dont have industry knowledge or experience that I'm immature.

Anyways, I'd stick to the topic and not get personal.

 

[KENAT]

It wasn't meant to be personal, it seems like you don't have much understanding at all of how the industry really works and where your skills might fit in. This isn't especially surprising of someone without industry experience but may be a disadvantage to you in having other places to look.

I was relating it (across my posts) to my thinking when I was younger (hence more naive & immature) that I could be like R J Mitchell, that is lead the detail design of a complete aircraft system. Aircraft and their systems are so complex and development timescales so long (at least military) that it doesn't really work like that any more.

I was trying to point out that at least some of your skills may not just be relevant to the Engine prime contractors but to associated customers & suppliers.

Finally I was trying to point out that if you're sounding a bit naieve/immature to me then this may come across to potential employers too.

Try and learn more about the industry. Looking here is a start. Read some aviation magazines/web sites like aerospace-defense.com. Look up the companies mentioned in any stories that grab your interest. Join industry organizations as I originally suggested.

http://www.sbac.co.uk/pages/88972133.asp

is the current version of the SBAC directory I looked at when trying to find a job, there may be similar for other countries.

You don't like washing machines, how about turbochargers or the like?

However, you've probably had more than enough of my input.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[btrueblood]

For the larger corporations on your list (i.e. most of them, you don't have any/many of the small players listed), join any part of the company that you can find a fit with and then try to work a transfer from the inside. If you're good (talented) and show interest, your boss may recommend you for the R&D group (yeah, I know, sounds like a fairy tale, but it worked for me).

" I could not work because I did not have either US or Canadian Citizenship or permanent residency."

So how tough would it be to change that? I notice you didn't list any of the Russian design bureaus.

I would not repeat my career path today. More advanced research is being done in small shops and startup companies. More modelling and analysis of combustors, turbines, etc. is done in the name of automotive and racing research than ever was done for rocket engines, and you stand a better chance of making your mark in the world there than at North American Rockwell Boeing-Rocketdyne.

 

[btrueblood]

whoops North American Rockwell Boeing Pratt&Whitney-Rocketdyne.

Hard to keep up sometimes.

The second rocket engine company I worked for went through several name changes also. Rocket Research Co. > Olin RRC > Olin Aerospace > Spinco > Gen. Dynamics > Aerojet

 

[TheTick]

I would not be in engineering if I had to design a washing machine.

Good thing for us consumers. I'm not sure I'd want your washing machine. Not so sure I'd want your rocket, either. All design efforts have merit. Design is an art unto itself. There are plenty of hacks who dream big and perform small.

The big boys want big talent. They aren't in a hurry to dump money into "maybe" talent. Get a job and do something. That way when you're at your dream interview, you have something to talk about besides dreams.

Whatever 6 years you went through weren't hell, unless you are very soft. You are not going to encounter many engineers who have paid less in dues.

 

[PropulsionMan]

KENAT I appreciate your (and everybody else's input) on this forum. It is why I signed up and why I am here. To learn from you guys and get advice. Your comment about immaturity just got to me, but I understand what you mean, and I appreciate your input a lot, and I thank you for all your advice, it is very good advice. I should be learning more about the industry, reading magazines, news websites etc. That's partially why I signed up here, to get in on all of that and try to get back my interest in engineering.

"You don't like washing machines, how about turbochargers or the like?" - KENAT

Certainly, I wouldnt mind working with turbochargers at all. In fact, I'm not 100% fixated on aircraft or spacecraft propulsion industry. Yes, that's what I studied and what interests me, but I can be realistic and I wouldnt mind working in the automotive industry, for example, as you mentioned, on turbochargers. It'd be good experience and I need it badly. I also would not mind at all working on the gas or steam turbine power generation industry. So it's not like I'm obsessed with 3 jet engine companies, although it would be my first choice of course.

"So how tough would it be to change that? I notice you didn't list any of the Russian design bureaus." - btrueblood

It's tough belive me. Unless I marry an American girl just for the sake of getting citizenship, or unles I'm terribly lucky in the Green Card yearly lottery, it's not gonna happen. And I'm sorry, I'm not gonna marry someone just because of my career. As for Russian design bureaus, well I dont know russian. I'm assuming they work in russian. Plus if the US and Canada dont hire foreigners to their Defense and Aerospace industries, I'd think Russia doesnt either.

I'm at the point that I just want to get a job as quickly as possible, but a job that is relevant to my field, and that can get me relevant experience so that I can move on to my field.

And I am an inexperienced college graduate who doesnt know much about the industry, so forgive me if some of my comments seem unrealistic. That is why I'm here after all, to learn from you all, and I appreciate greatly all the advice and insights you have all given me thus far.

~PropulsionMan

 

[doberdorks]

a)How do you prepare for your dream job (or your first job in general). I.e. do you try to learn the CAD or CFD software teh companies you want to work with use? Do you read textbooks all day and review material? Do you randomly pick engineering problems and try to solve them? Learn FORTRAN or C and do problems, do CFD, do CAD on your spare time? Is any of this really worth all the time it'd take?

My personal thoughts would be (remember free advice is worth what you pay for it) --

1. Get familiar enough with the software that you know more or less how it works, then you can put "familiar with XXX" on your resume (and then not get weeded out before interviews). This one is a bit of an issue with me, because I don't think learning software is a big issue... knowing if hte answer it gives you is correct is.

2. Can you do some small scale consulting as a resume builder? Or a pet project? I had a 5+ year job start as a 3 week contract.

3. Question might be, how do you network in a small environment. I have not gotten ANY of my jobs since summer type jobs by just sending in a resume. At the VERY least, if you can find out who is hiring (engineer, not HR), call them, say "I hear you're looking for an XXX, I'd like to find out more about what you're looking for" ... don't use it as an excuse to drop off a resume, but to meet the person and get a feel for what's important to them. (attach resume to thank you letter perhaps). Note, I think this is a good idea, others are probably annoyed by people who want to show up on thier doorstep.

4. Become active in technical societies if that's feasible (meet more people).

5. If you take interm jobs, have a plan (I'm doing XXX for YYY skill or ZZZ contacts)... not just whatever comes along (at least till you get hungry).

Again, thoughts only, but seems to me that you need networking more than resume building, though the resume building wouldn't hurt either. Lets face it, you're getting interviews, so that's a good sign...

SLH

 

[PropulsionMan]

THanx for the advice SLH.

Honestly, yes I did get a few interviews, inlucindg by phone, on-campus and on-site. But they were very few and far in between.

The other thing I wanted to ask about is what you touched upon SLH. It's not just how to prepare, but what's the best way to find jobs. I mean, these days it seems it's all done online through job websites or company career websites. I mean, even when you talk to somebody, like a company recruiter that comes to your campus, they end up telling you to go to their website and apply! It was one of the things that frustrated me most, why bother coming to college campuses if you are just gonna direct people to a company website.

It seems applying online is like trying to fish with your own bare hands. You send your resume, never get a response from a human being.

What would be some advice as far as the job search? Go to job fairs at universities? Call up the company and ask to talk to a random engineering manager? Or do you just send out resumes and hope for the best, that one of the 300 you send gets actually read by someone?

PropulsionMan