How to prepare and search for your first job (dos and do nots) 6

[PropulsionMan]

Greetings all, this is my first post. I've been looking for an engineering forum forever, glad I finally found one, dont know how I missed this. I in fact created my own forum, though it's so hard to start online communities these days that I gave up in the end.

Anyways, a bit of background to my situation, and I'm seeking some advice on the matter.

Basically, I went to study Aerospace Engineering in the US for 6 years, got Masters and Bachelors, looked for about 2 years for jobs in the US and Canada in the aerospace field, got a few interviews, and they always ended up the same way. I could not work because I did not have either US or Canadian Citizenship or permanent residency.

Why did I "waste" so much time looking for a job that I pretty much knew I couldnt find? Well, after 6 years of hell in school, I didnt look for jobs 24/7, so I took some time off if you will, traveling a lot and spending time with friends etc. IN between having fun, I'd search for jobs. And I did land a few interviews, including 2 of my top dream companies in my chosen field, 2 of the biggest North American aircraft engine manufacturers. Both got me to interview with them, but both said no because they wanted at least permanent residency.

So at last, I have completely shifted my focus to look for propulsion jobs in Europe, where I'm legally allowed to work cause I'm a EU citizen.

I specialized in gas turbine and rocket propulsion, specifically in aerothermal analysis, combustion, heat transfer and performance analysis. And I have 2 big questions:

a)How do you prepare for your dream job (or your first job in general). I.e. do you try to learn the CAD or CFD software teh companies you want to work with use? Do you read textbooks all day and review material? Do you randomly pick engineering problems and try to solve them? Learn FORTRAN or C and do problems, do CFD, do CAD on your spare time? Is any of this really worth all the time it'd take?

Ok...that's a big question made up of smaller ones

b)Can your first job realistically be your dream job? The job you've been studying specifically for a long time? Or do you have to settle pretty soon with whatever you find, and then keep looking while you work?

c)Say you have a dream job (mine is working with rocket or gas turbine propulsion) do you have to start working in something related to it? So say you want to work with gas turbine engines, but cant find work with the aircraft engine manufacturers, do you HAVE to find a job say in the turbine industry? Say steam turbines for power generation, or pumps etc so that you can build experience relevant and closely related to gas turbine propulsion and rocket systems? Like say you worked 4 years with materials or structural engineering for a car company. Would this time be wasted if you wanted to be a combustion engineer or a aerothermal engineer on a gas turbine engine company?

Sorry for the length of my post,

thanx in advance,

PropulsionMan

 

[GregLocock]

To get my first job I wrote, by hand, 70 or more application letters (to every single relevant firm in the country), and posted them, and then filled in by hand the resulting application forms.

So, no, sending out 300 resumes doesn't sound like much effort to me.




Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[TheTick]

My parents were born in Germany, came to the U.S. via Canada. I found a stack of old files in my father's closet when I was going through his things after he died. I found his old immigration file. He had applied for entry to the U.S. multiple times and was denied. Once he finished his Ph.D., it was "Welcome to America, Dr. Schwarz!" Perhaps a Ph.D. will get you in, as well.

Meanwhile, get to work. Contract work is often a good "back door" into certain companies. Can't get a job with a major company? Get a job with one of their supplers. Pick the right supplier and you could make contacts with many other potential employers.

 

[Helicopterjunky]

Propulsion Man

If you want to develop advanced turbo engines you will need a PHd. With a MS you will most likely be doing general design (change orders, CAD drafting, manufacturing or quality support) stuff like I have. Most advanced R&D work in these types of companies requires a PHd.

As far as getting a job you will want to try all avenues.
Job Fairs. Industry contacts from friends and professors.
Technical Societies. Sending out resumes. Researching and contacting key decision makers in companies of interest.
Respond to adds. Any and all. Networking is the most productive. Also contact temporary technical staffing companies for jobs. Many jobs start out as contract jobs today. As one of the posters stated many of the big propulsion companies are farming lots of their work out to smaller companies to save money. Do not ignore the smaller supporting firms. Also companies like Boeing and Airbus have many folks involved in powerplant interface as the engines are a key system. Job hunting is a full time endeavor and requires alot of research. Things will happen if you put in the effort. Good Luck to You!

 

[PropulsionMan]

"If you want to develop advanced turbo engines you will need a PHd. With a MS you will most likely be doing general design (change orders, CAD drafting, manufacturing or quality support) stuff like I have. Most advanced R&D work in these types of companies requires a PHd."

For R&D you need a PhD yes. For product development I dont think so. One of my best frieds and college m8s, who took just about every single class I did and graduated at the same time (except he's a US Citizen...) got a job with a large and famous rocket engine manufacturer in the US and does aerothermal analysis for them.

They did not ask for a PhD...and that's a analytical as it gets, doing aerothermal analysis on rocket systems.

Many people say a PhD is only good to get into Academia or into Research. Industry most often doenst want PhDs, because it has to pay over-pay them for jobs that MS or even BS folks can do, especially with the right amount of experience.

Also, 95% of the job positions I looked at did not require PhDs. Most often from what I've seen companies require PhDs if you are going to work in their research centers, but not for product development.

At least, that's what I heard.

 

[doberdorks]

In my experience, value of the PhD depends on the person hiring.

I think "all of the above" as mentioned is the right response" you need to go through the standard hoops to get your resume in front of the (technical) person hiring, you need to go through the non-standard hoops in the hopes he or she will think "oh yes, that's the bright young fellow I talked to at XXX"...

a warning about the head hunting companies -- some companies say that if an agency sends in the resume for ANY job, you then are their client -- even for a different job in a different office -- a LOT of the companies locally now mine sites for resumes to randomly send in... very low effort high return for them if it works... so make sure you know the rigamarole before saying "sure send my resume in for that position" -- chances are, it's also advertised on the company site..

Anyway, good luck, would be nice if you updated this list on what you're doing and how it's working.

SLH

 

[ykee]

So, I'm a little curious: you say your engineering program was hell -- but you would love to do engineering as a career. I'm wondering what aspect of schooling you hated so much.

 

[btrueblood]

"I would not be in engineering if I had to design a washing machine."

Tic: "Good thing for us consumers. I'm not sure I'd want your washing machine. Not so sure I'd want your rocket, either. All design efforts have merit. Design is an art unto itself. There are plenty of hacks who dream big and perform small."

Chuckled at that too. I worked for nearly a decade helping to build rocket engines, from the SSME (and bigger) down to little mousefart thrusters used on satellites. There were some highlights, and it was a fun pickup line to use - "hey babe, wanna meet a real rocket scientist?". But, it got boring and frustrating after awhile doing the same-old thing, and watching program after program go in the toilet due to budget shenanigans. Didn't like the politics, and they permeate all levels. Smaller companies were better, but they are always hanging by a funding thread.

So I got a job designing rug cleaning machines (amongst a variety of other stuff), for small companies where I was their first ever real engineer. More money, more responsibility...and a lot more fun. But, that's me, you're you.

Seriously, Solar turbines, CAT turbines, get used around the world for stationary power plants. There is a lot of research going into those systems right now. I'd sure be talking to the automotive and stationary power guys, and finding out who might be doing the testing and research for them, send them an email or two. Look at the last several years of SAE, AIAA, ASME journals, get company names, research them on the internet, send them an email or two. Wanna really good tip? Get the article author's(s') email address(es), and contact him/her/them directly. Tell them you read their article, liked it so much that you are wondering if there's an opening for an assistant. You'd be surprised at how far a little ego stroking will take you with those guys (but that's why they write journal articles, isn't it?). Excuse me, now I'm gonna go home and take a shower.

 

[PropulsionMan]

"Anyway, good luck, would be nice if you updated this list on what you're doing and how it's working." - SLH

I will certainly do so. I'd like to keep getting feedback (and give out information based on my own experiences too to the eng-tips community). Though I've been researching the Visual Effects industry lately, and honestly, although I love VFX work, I found out just like anything else, you dont always get to do what you love. Even in VFX, you can end up working for commercials or feature films that are not in your area of interest. Like I really am not into character animation, and a ton of work out there in Animation and VFX is in that area. So I'm slowly coming to the realization that I will never find a job where I do 100% what I like. I'm starting to think more realistically, about what will bring me the most stability and $$$ while still allowing me to have the most possible fun at work. I mean, a famous quite is they wouldnt call it work if it wasnt work.

I'm starting to look at it from a different perspective. See, if I went into VFX, yes I might end up doing what I want, but it'd take such a ridiculous amount of effort, that it'd give me little time for anything else. While, if I find myself a 9 to 5 stable job that gives me the money and vacation time and freedom to do what I want outside of work, then I'll be set.

See another serious career path I was thinking of taking was professional flying. I'm also a FAA Private Pilot with some 130 hours of flight time, and it's one of the things I loved doing the most in my entire life, more so than VFX. However, I soon realized that if I went to fly professionally, I'd end up hating flying, because of the type of work environment that pilots are in.

So, slowly but surely, the pieces of the puzzle are starting to fall into place. You could call this experience, elightment, maturity, growth whatever you want. I'm starting to get realistic, find a job that can make me (and my future to be family) live a stable and comfortable life, and give me enough free time to dedicate to the things I truly love to do (VFX, flying) and lets not forget helping others, and get out of our little worlds and touch somebody else' life for once.

So the grand news is that I decided to stick to engineering, so it turns out my 200K and 6 years are not going to be thrown out of the window after all

Now, I just have to figure out how to get this darn engineering job

I've applied to an Italian propulsion company and Ferrari in the past few days. That goes to show the diversity lol. I could end up actually doing work related to my degree, i.e rocket propulsion, or end up working on cars

"So, I'm a little curious: you say your engineering program was hell -- but you would love to do engineering as a career. I'm wondering what aspect of schooling you hated so much. " - ykee

Oh, hell doesnt necessarily refer to something one hates What I meant to say was it was hell as far as having almost no social life, whole time spent studying, not even time to shower or sleep, turning nights into days and days into nights, doing homework at 5am at a Denny's that type of thing. It was a "fun" hell if you will. It pushed me and my buddies to our limits (and many times beyond them), but every single graduate says after school, work is cake. At 5pm the day is over. Where as in school the day is never over, it's one continous workaholic life.

I do love engineering, and I would nto have gone for a 5th and 6th year in grad school if I didnt like my first 4 years. Of course, I dont love all engineering. I took some courses early on I didnt like, but had to take. Later on I was able to choose practically all my courses, which is why I ended up being spoiled, by doing exactly what I loved. Which is why after such an experience, working with the things you chose to work on, it's a bit hard accepting just any engineering job that comes your way.

"But, it got boring and frustrating after awhile doing the same-old thing, and watching program after program go in the toilet due to budget shenanigans. Didn't like the politics, and they permeate all levels. Smaller companies were better, but they are always hanging by a funding thread.

So I got a job designing rug cleaning machines (amongst a variety of other stuff), for small companies where I was their first ever real engineer. More money, more responsibility...and a lot more fun. But, that's me, you're you." - btrueblood

Thanx for the insight btrueblood. So basically you worked in my dream job (SSMEs and rocket propulsion) and got bored And perhaps I would get bored too, who knows. I wont know until I get the experience.

You are not the first person to tell me to look at smaller companies. It seems people have a thing against big companies, and I think I understand. I mean, where as in a big company you might be just another number, working in one of 300 Departments and one of 30934034 projects in one of several dozen corporate divisions, when you transition to a smaller comapany fo like a dozen people, I can see how you could feel like a god desceneded on earth (real engineer as you put it). And I've had people tell me it can be just as satisfying, if not much more satisfying, designing something from the ground up all by yourself, and saying you did that, rather than say I designed bolt number 33434 on Part 223-CC9 on this rocket system.

All of this discussion is quite inspiring and motivational actually. It's telling me that there really is a lot of work out there that can be satisfying and pay well (or more) than the big name companies.

Keep the comments and advice coming It's greatly appreciated.

~PropulsionMan

 

[melone]

So why are you just thinking about these things now, and not before you choose a major in college?

 

[TheTick]

I see a very disturbing trend in your posts. Both for VFX and engineering, you have a very narrow range of interest, and are very dismissive of things that don't "trip your trigger". You are very judgmental of endeavours you know nothing about.

Treat all tasks, projects, jobs as worthy of your best effort and attention. Every project has something to teach. There is much to be learned in the process of learning to do anything well. If you do not treat all work with respect, nothing you do will be respectable.

 

[PropulsionMan]

Melone,

That's because between high school and college I had like a few months to consider what college and program to apply to, not to mention I was a kid. Since graduation, I've had to think of neither school nor work, and for the first time I've had the time to explore what I truly might have liked to do. And as I said, in school you get verry narrow vision, as you only focus on how to pass the next exam or finish your homework.

TheTick,

we dont have to like everything. It's ok to have preferences and specific interests in life. You dont see Einstein being interested in economics or art much do you? He loved physics, the violin and hicking, and because he focused on one thing, he was able to become a part of history. And he did it because he loved what he did, and chose to do exactly that. And for the record, he did not find a job for years, and had to teach privately and find work wherever he could, even as a patent office worker. But eventually he ended up doing what he loved.

There is nothing disturbing IMO about knowing what you like, and going after it.

However, I do see the point that people have tried to convey to me, to be flexible at the earlier stages of a career, and accept a greater variety of jobs and just get the experience, and move from job to job unti you find the right one, instead of waiting for the dream job forever. I now understand that, and I've broadened the range of jobs I'm applying to.

That still doesnt change the fact I'd rather be working on a rocket engine rather than a washing machine. At least, that's my opinion right now, based on my experiences. Perhaps after some industry experience on jobs such as designig washing machines, I might change my mind. But for now, I do have my preferences and interests, based on my past experiences.

~PropulsionMan

 

[Helicopterjunky]

Propulsion Man

I definately do not want to discourage you from your dreams and your dream jobs. If you enjoy your work, and they do call it work, you will be happier in the long run.

However, from one who has worked in the jet engine business I will tell you it is not all it is cracked up to be. You don't have to believe me. Some additional comments from others in jet engine and rocket propulsion would be helpful. I personally would get just as much or more satisfaction working in power gearing, design and production of earthmovers, sports equipment or plumbing harware than I do in aerospace. Aerospace is fairly easy niche to get locked into and then people such as HR types think you can't do anything else. Hopefully, more people in your dream jobs will post their experiences.

Just keep at the job hunt as a full time endeavor and you never know what opportunity will present itself. You can always change paths later on to more closely fit your interests or you may discover that your intersts may change with gained experience.

 

[IRstuff]

I think that you've missed the point of several postings here. While having a goal and ideal of a perfect job is certainly laudable, compared to being totally adrift and not knowing what you want to be when you grow up, the reality is that you're rapidly approaching the point of diminishing returns. Like anyone who aspires to be the next Bill Gates, at some point in time, you have to conclude that you're not getting there from here, not right now.

The issue is that whatever your current desires are, they can often be reflected and discerned from your behavior and approach to interviews. Particularly, given your rather dismissive attitude towards any alternative avenues, do you think that you've been a good enough actor to fool them into thinking that you'll deign to do something other than design rockets?

You're at the point, I think, where ANY engineering job will be preferrable to being on "permanent summer vacaction." Unfortunately, that's all on you; you need to psych and convince yourself that you'll like the next job opportunity that comes along and that you'll go for it whole heartedly, and with reservations. Without that attitude, it's very likely that all your future interviewers will see where you're heading, which isn't in their direction, and they won't bother making an investment in you, and you'll still be pounding the pavement a year from now.

To some degree, you need to treat this as a combat scenario. Who wins is often not dictated by what one's resume says, but by how badly someone wants to win. Are you up to that task?

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[MadMango]

Unfortunately, that's all on you; you need to psych and convince yourself that you'll like the next job opportunity that comes along and that you'll go for it whole heartedly, and without reservations.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[svanels]

There is more in engineering than design rockets or washing machines.

Although a few people do "rocket science" there are a lot more engineers employed keeping these "rockets" in the air. I am talking about maintenance and reliability. You will find engineers in power plants, airports, ships, refineries doing things that has something to do with "rocket science".
Every job in engineering/maintenance has its boring side

 

[graybeach]

With so much demand for engineers these days people are really getting jaded. When I graduated back in 1983 there were no jobs for entry level engineers. I sent out at least 100 resumes and would have done anything civil related, for a pittance. Finally after 6 months of waitresses, I got a job as a bridge engineer.
There is so much more to working as an engineer than some narrow field of practice. You have to learn how to scope out the problem and how to effectively deliver the product of your efforts.
Even if you get your dream job, you should still be willing to wash windows. Personally I get a kick out of the weird things I have to design sometimes like fences, signs and flagpoles. No - it is not "rocket science," but each thing has its intracacies and opportunities for major screw ups. Maybe you might end up designing the toilet for a rocket - tho knows?

 

[csd72]

You just need to spread your net wider.

1. Take any engineering job for the time being, any experience is better on a cv than none at all. It also shows you are keen to work.

2. Have you tried boeing? they seem to have a flexible recruitment policy.

There are also aerospace companies in Australia and the UK, have you contacted them?

You may look into working a few years for your own country's airforce to get experience.

Getting your first job is usually the hardest job you will ever get, it takes a lot of work.

Good luck!

 

[btrueblood]

Graybeach,

What was wrong with 6 months of waitresses, why would you ever leave that for engineering?

 

[EddyC]

PropulsionMan,

Sometimes, its the engineering process itself (CAD, Calculations, FEA, etc), rather than the product created, that is personally rewarding. The physical phenomena that are utilized to make a rocket engine (Heat transfer, chemical reactions, stress & strain, materials, etc) are also utilized in many areas and products. I think that you need to broaden your focus. Many engineers never get to work on the things that they dreamed about in school. Some lucky ones will, but that usually has been after they "Pay their dues", after putting in years of work in engineering.

Regards.

 

[graybeach]

I know. What a dumb typo! I meant waitressing!!