How to Stop Ex-Employee Soliciting Work as an Engineer 7

[EngineerByDay]

There was a man (non-engineer) who used to do design drafting on a contract basis for my firm twenty years ago, prior to my hire. My firm is a design engineering firm that produces construction drawings for commercial construction. The man established contact with many of the company's Design-Build clients and then left the company. For the last twenty years he has been soliciting work from these Design-Build contractors, completing the drawings, and then paying various PEs to stamp them for him. In 2007, the state board gave him a cease and desist order, but he has only gotten smarter with his actions. His name never appears on any of his drawings any longer, but we all know that he is doing the work. Currently, he has a retired Civil Engineer stamping his HVAC drawings. If that man is turned it, then he will just move to another PE to stamp them. How do you stop a guy like this? Obviously, he is stealing work from my company, but more importantly, he is a total fraud who leads all his clients to believe he is qualified to do this work. The Design-Build contractors don't care, simply because they are getting stamped drawings at a reduced price. The state board wants a smoking gun dropped in their lap. He is too smart for that. Please help!

 

[moltenmetal]

If the work being done is incompetent, the professional engineers stamping the incompetent work are the ones you need to go after. During their discipline cases, the issue of a non-engineer or unlicensed engineer doing work in the scope of professional engineering will come to light, names will be revealed and the licensing body will come after the offender.

If the work being done is being done competently and stamped (properly) by a professional engineer, you have no recourse. You have just discovered how professional engineering works in every jurisdiction with a Certificate of Authorization process- the work can be done by nonlicensed engineers or non-engineers, as long as a licensee takes professional responsibility for the work. That the work wasn't actually done by a licensee is nobody's business other than the employer/C of A holder.

 

[JedClampett]

How about the old fashioned way: Do the work cheaper or better. If his work is bad, he'll be found out.
Anyway, the guy sounds like he's pretty old. If you can't beat him, mother nature will.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

While it's never fun when someone isn't playing by the rules; I think the bigger question is there a risk to the safety of life and/or property? If this is as you suspect do you have any reason to believe the designs are not competent? If so, I'd pursue this further as moltenmetal said; you'll have to go after the stamping engineer and find ways to prove the designs are faulty. This is likely no small task.

Whatever you do, I'd stick to your guns and not play a race to the bottom game.

Ian Riley, PE, SE
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries

https://www.facebook.com/AmericanConcrete/

 

[EngineerByDay]

Thank you so much for the comments. I think I need to clarify that the non-engineer who is soliciting the work from the contractors, and completing the drawings is working as a Sole Proprietor under his own company name. Once he is done with the drawings, he then gives them to an PE to "plan-stamp" them for him. He collects all the money, and then gives the engineer a token amount for providing the stamp. This is wrong in so many ways. Whether or not the drawings impose a threat to anyone, is not the point. He is not allowed to solicit engineering work, nor is he allowed to complete any work without supervision. Since this work is HVAC work, it will be very difficult to show incompetence of the engineer who is doing the plan stamping. Most of his drawings are adequate and would contain enough information to obtain a permit. If the engineer is turned in, the non-engineer will just move on to another retired engineer who will take the risk of plan stamping. In a worst case, the non-engineer will be fined $1,000 (which happened in 2007), and then he will continue as normal. The rewards outweigh the risks.

 

[IRstuff]

It seems to me that you should, instead, be going after the PEs that stamp the work; they have a licensure responsibility to have "responsible charge" or "responsible supervision" of the work performed that they stamp. Unless they can show in their records that they had regular meetings and/or design/peer reviews, they're complicit in someone else practicing without a license. Getting their licenses suspended or investigated probably won't be worth the chump change they're getting for the stamps.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[JAE]

Check your local state board rules and laws. There are many states in the US that prohibit individuals from soliciting engineering work if the firms are not owned by a PE.

Check out Eng-Tips Forum's Policies here:
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[TehMightyEngineer]

Just to clarify, is this actually illegal in your jurisdiction? In my jurisdiction this isn't technically illegal as long as the engineer performs a thorough review and is in responsible charge of the design:

Any licensed Professional Engineer may apply a seal on any plans, specifications, reports or calculations, provided such documents are prepared or reviewed personally by or under the supervision of that licensed Professional Engineer. By affixing his or her seal to any professional engineering document the licensed Professional Engineer takes full legal responsibility for it, regardless of whether the Professional Engineer receives any compensation.

Of course, the non-licensed person cannot claim to be an engineer, or that they can perform engineering, so it's a little grey for them to be advertising for such work but I can see a reasonable work around if they state up front that they will hire an engineer to oversee the work. As the person you mention is not putting their name on these documents they may not be running afoul of practicing engineering without a license.

In short, depending on your local laws you may be stuck with just chasing him or her from one engineer to another and if they're preparing competent drawings and designs there may be nothing you can do.

Ian Riley, PE, SE
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries

https://www.facebook.com/AmericanConcrete/

 

[CWB1]

Sounds to me like you're a third party making accusations against a competitor based upon assumptions, not a good position to be in. Regardless, he may not in fact be soliciting engineering work, he may be soliciting design work to be reviewed by an independent PE which is perfectly legal and normal practice in many locales.

I would take Jed Clampett's advice above and focus on competing rather than spending time on something that may get you sued out of business and/or cost your license.

 

[EngineerByDay]

I’m sorry for confusing some people. As I stated previously, the non-engineer was already fined $1000 from the KY State Board in 2007. This is definitely illegal in KY. I also stated that I am obviously losing potential work. That’s one reason why it is upsetting. Whenever I talk to these contractors, they will tell me they hire the “non-engineer” to complete their drawings. He solicits their work and they will confirm it. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought a design-build contractor cannot legally contract with a non-engineer for stamped drawings? The money flows from the design-build contractor, to the fake engineer, to the real engineer. Has anyone had any luck showing the flow of the money? Thanks.

 

[NorthCivil]

EBD,

It doesn't really sound like you have a leg to stand on here. It doesn't matter which way the money flows. There is nothing illegal about selling an engineered product. As long as the designer doesn't advertise engineering services, he is clear. If he is providing plans that do not present a danger to the public, there is no ethical concern. If he is providing a quality product, there is no concern at all.

 

[MrHershey]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought a design-build contractor cannot legally contract with a non-engineer for stamped drawings?

I'm not sure why it would be. This happens all the time. A fair amount of the pre-engineered submittals I review are situations where contractor is getting the product from some company who has farmed out the engineering to someone else. I see this on precast, prestressing tendons, FRP, light gauge submittals, sway bracing, and tons more in the structural world. I assume it's even more common in the mechanical world.

On large design-build jobs it even happens within the design team. Contractor hires architect who then hires engineers. Therefore contractor is contracted with a non-engineer and receives stamped engineering drawings from them.

I'm with NorthCivil. I don't know that you have a leg to stand on here other than to report any deficient engineering work to the board. I'd think it would be really, really easy to paint anything you bring to the board as sour grapes on your part for a former employee (not even, since you said he did it on a contract basis) of 20 years leaving the company and taking some business with him.

Please also keep in mind before reporting deficient engineering to the board that in many states you should be giving the sealing engineer the chance to correct any deficient work before you escalate to the board. If you don't you could be violating the board's code of ethics and be putting your own license in jeopardy. And if there really is no deficient work you could be opening yourself to legal jeopardy as well. I'd be pretty livid if some random company that previously contracted with one of my clients went after my license and erroneously reported me to the board for deficient work as part of some spat that doesn't even involve me.

 

[SuperSalad]

If you can't beat him, join him.

If the lost business is significant enough, and there are no actual bridges burnt here, would trying to recruit him be feasible for your firm?

If his designs are good, and you, or someone in your firm, could provide the PE stamps, you might both be able to gain if this person is interested in being an employee. It doesn't seem like you are a big fan of this person, but business is business and if you're firm is hurting from the current arrangement, maybe a new arrangement can be worked out.

Andrew H.

http://www.mototribology.com

 

[bones206]

There was a thread (thread784-428500) not too long ago where a guy with an EIT started up a sole proprietorship with essentially the same business model. People ripped into him pretty thoroughly for soliciting engineering services as a non-engineer. How is this case any different? Clearly this guy in Kentucky is doing something shady if the state has already levied a fine and issued a cease and desist order.

Maybe try this:

1) Tell the state that contractor XYZ told you they contracted with this non-engineer ABC who is soliciting engineering services.
2) Maybe the state calls the contractor and confirms that he is in fact flaunting the cease and desist order.
3) State can now progress to the next level of disciplinary action for violating the order.

I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs of the law on this topic, but if guy ABC has already been fined, then it's apparent that whatever he is doing is illegal. I'm a little surprised that people are willing to defend this guy who is clearly undercutting the profession of engineering. Unless he has a PE or works for a firm that is licensed by the state to perform engineering services, I don't see how he can advertise and solicit clients those services.

On large design-build jobs it even happens within the design team. Contractor hires architect who then hires engineers. Therefore contractor is contracted with a non-engineer and receives stamped engineering drawings from them.

I think the difference is that the architect isn't soliciting engineering services. They have to go out and hire a legit engineer for that scope. For delegated design items the contractor still has to go hire a legit engineer. If the legit engineer then subs out the drafting and design work to Mr. ABC under his direction, then that sounds legal and ethical to me. But Mr. ABC shouldn't be out there pretending to be something he's not.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

bones: I'm not defending the non-engineer, I'm just stating that they may not be doing anything illegal anymore that OP can go after him or her for.

The difference I see between the thread you posted and this one is whether or not the unlicensed person is offering engineering services and holding themselves out to be an engineer. The linked thread with the EIT was someone who was clearly offering engineering and holding themselves out to be an engineer. As ron in that thread pointed out, he was clearly in violation of Florida law.

This is less clear cut. I haven't looked up the rules/laws for KY but if he was fined it sounds like he ran afoul of holding himself out as an engineer. However, if he renames his company Joe's Drafting and Detailing, doesn't claim to offer engineering, gets hired for a job that requires PE stamped drawings, and tells his client that he will sub-contract with an engineer to stamp his drawings; I don't believe he's doing anything illegal in most states.

Is it unfair? Sure.
Is it something to be discouraged? Yes.
Is it misleading to his client and/or providing substandard work? Possibly.
Is it unethical and/or unsafe? Possibly.
Is it wrong or illegal? Probably not.

In the precast industry many smaller precast companies don't have an engineer on staff. However, precast designs are put out bid (either as the sub-contractor or as the prime contractor) with the understanding that many of the precast designs will need to be stamped by an engineer. Thus, the engineer is working for the precaster and often stamping the precasters drawings and sometimes even their designs (after appropriate reviews of course). I have nothing wrong with this, as long as the engineer is competent and ethical. The precaster isn't holding themselves out as an engineer (unless they do actually have an engineer on staff like our company does).

Ian Riley, PE, SE
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries

https://www.facebook.com/AmericanConcrete/

 

[bones206]

I don’t disagree with any of that. I guess it really comes down to how he is representing himself and his business.

 

[IRstuff]

The big difference is that the EIT was posing the previous question, not some outsider, as in this case.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[CWB1]

Regardless of the competition, I would recommend the OP consider some continuing education and/or mentorship through one of the professional societies. This situation is rather common and basic licensing law and limitations should be well understood by anyone working at a PE firm and most definitely by PEs, not only for legal but also strategic business reasons. The CE/SE/MEP world has been largely sheltered for decades from outsourcing, but in recent years there has been a bit of an influx of foreign competition. The same laws allowing his domestic competition to design and outsource final engineering approval allow foreign businesses to do the exact same thing from overseas. In reality, the OP's employer should easily be able to outcompete the designer simply due to the 2x nature of his outsourcing (designer and the PE's separate overhead costs, insurance, etc). If they're having problems competing against an inefficient domestic competitor now, the OP might start planning for the eventuality of competing with 3rd world labor.

 

[MrHershey]

I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs of the law on this topic, but if guy ABC has already been fined, then it's apparent that whatever he is doing is illegal. I'm a little surprised that people are willing to defend this guy who is clearly undercutting the profession of engineering. Unless he has a PE or works for a firm that is licensed by the state to perform engineering services, I don't see how he can advertise and solicit clients those services.

I'm operating under the assumption that he's not soliciting/offering engineering services. OP said he got fined over a decade ago and got a cease and desist and has since 'gotten smarter'. I wouldn't consider him to be very 'smart' if he was continuing to blatantly offer engineering services in violation of a cease and desist order.

I'll go ahead and clarify that I'm not defending the guy. Similar to TME, I don't really like what he's doing. But if he's not portraying himself as an engineer, he's not offering engineering services (just drafting/coordination) and there's no deficient work to go after his stamping engineer(s) for, then I'm not really sure OP has any standing to do anything about it. If OP has reported him to the board for any of the above and they've declined to act on it, then I'd think that's the end of it.

 

[bones206]

True, not knowing all the facts makes it impossible to judge. I just think this type of arrangement is exactly what the whole licensing is intended to avoid in the first place. It’s in the state’s interest to shut this guy down to protect those who have gone through the struggle and expense of licensure. If you allow a grey area to be exploited like this, the market will be flooded with wannabe engineers and shady plan stampers.