How to Stop Ex-Employee Soliciting Work as an Engineer 7

[EngineerByDay]

There was a man (non-engineer) who used to do design drafting on a contract basis for my firm twenty years ago, prior to my hire. My firm is a design engineering firm that produces construction drawings for commercial construction. The man established contact with many of the company's Design-Build clients and then left the company. For the last twenty years he has been soliciting work from these Design-Build contractors, completing the drawings, and then paying various PEs to stamp them for him. In 2007, the state board gave him a cease and desist order, but he has only gotten smarter with his actions. His name never appears on any of his drawings any longer, but we all know that he is doing the work. Currently, he has a retired Civil Engineer stamping his HVAC drawings. If that man is turned it, then he will just move to another PE to stamp them. How do you stop a guy like this? Obviously, he is stealing work from my company, but more importantly, he is a total fraud who leads all his clients to believe he is qualified to do this work. The Design-Build contractors don't care, simply because they are getting stamped drawings at a reduced price. The state board wants a smoking gun dropped in their lap. He is too smart for that. Please help!

 

[CWB1]

By this definition, the act of telling the contractor that you will provide them stamped drawings is by definition performing engineering services. If I'm interpreting the legaleese correctly...

Offering design services as the competitor likely is however doesn't meet any of the state definitions of engineering.

(a) "Engineering" shall include:
1. Consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning, certification, and design of engineering works and systems;
a. Engineering design and engineering work associated with design/build projects;
b. Engineering works and systems which involve earth materials, water or other liquids, and gases;
c. Planning the use of land, air, and waters; and
d. Performing engineering surveys and studies;

 

[awhicker84]

That's still interesting. If the customer receives a stamped drawing then why the need for a full time engineer?

So basically, from the cursory browsing thru this conservation, you cannot sell 'engineering services', but might be able to sell 'designing services'. If you sell 'design services' then all you can do is prepare an unstamped drawing and then the 'engineering company' stamps the drawing. So the 'designer' is a sub contractor of the 'engineer'. I'd have to read the post above that quotes actual KY law because I find this very gray (but let's be honest, I'm just burning time because my next task at work is boring and I'm not interested enough to learn KY law).

Nevermind, post above clears it up.

However, it seems to me that the real beef is that the cost is lower. It also seems to me that the cost is lower because the PE is a retired engineer who is making money 'on the side' instead of trying to make a living. As a result his wages are lower than normal.

 

[JAE]

The only issue I see here is the concern whether the "retired" engineers truly have direct supervisory control over the designs and also whether they are doing full design checks of every part of the design.

There are times when engineers "review" (i.e. look over a drawing for 5 minutes) and "check" (spot check a small piece of the overall design) and call that supervisory control and design. It is not.

For the retired engineer to provide their services in conformance with the typical US state engineering laws, they should be running through all the numbers, models, analyses, to essentially the same level as if they were the sole designer.

The only difference here would be that the ex-employee designer has already figured out the system, worked through coordination items, and drawn things up, which saves the PE some time of course.

But the PE should never depend on the designer's design calculations without running through the numbers themself.

The other issue is whether the PE, upon seeing something that isn't quite right, wants to change the design and the "designer" refuses. That is not supervisory control.



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[bones206]

A former coworker once told me about a PE friend of his who made a living stamping drawings in Florida. This PE would brag that the limiting factor in how much money he made in a day was how fast he could flip over the corners of the drawings to put his stamp on the border.

I agree that the laws regarding this particular business model are gray. Unfortunately, we all know what gray areas lead to when human nature and money are involved...

 

[HamburgerHelper]

It would be easier to do more work that requires engineering knowledge than to get into a fight with a botton feeder. It sounds like you are doing work which is very basic and cookie cutter.

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If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.

 

[lacajun]

Check your state laws because many states require that any firm doing engineering work have at least one principal be a Professional Engineer. Someone has to know what they're doing and know enough to assume responsibility.

If an MBA holder is also a Professional Engineer, they are qualified to own an engineering firm. If a barber is also a Professional Engineer, they, too, are qualified to own an engineering firm.

The work performed may not be basic and cookie cutter. If the non-engineer learned enough to effectively copy cat, he can "get away with it." But, if he sees anything beyond what he knows, he's in trouble and so are his clients.

Speaking for myself, I didn't go to school and abide by the laws to compete with non-engineers such as this. It's an activity that hurts the profession and some individuals. Just because it doesn't happen in your discipline/expertise does not mean it never happens anywhere else in the profession.


Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:

http://nspe-co.org/events.php

 

[lacajun]

At an energy conference several years ago, I met a man that called himself a controls engineer. Has it on his business card, etc. He worked on boilers and HVAC systems. When I asked him about tuning and various control aspects, he clarified that he only opens and closes valves. He doesn't get into tuning because he doesn't understand it. Yet, he claims to be a controls engineer that can optimize boilers and HVAC systems. Righto!

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:

http://nspe-co.org/events.php

 

[beej67]

What's shady or devaluing about anything he's doing?

From the sound of it, the competitor did design work for the OP's firm previously and his work was stamped after reviewing with a PE. From the sound of it he's doing the exact same thing now - designing projects that are then reviewed with a PE and stamped. Both designer and PE are still employed, so no loss there. Quality work can still be done, no loss there. The PE has work coming to him without any real effort on his part, value gained there. The only value lost would be that the customer's check is now supporting two companies' overhead costs and there is certainly time lost communicating between the two companies. The competitor could hire his PE sub and be on equal footing with the OP and many other engineering firms but the PE would likely make less money as an employee, which would in fact devalue the profession.

Regarding "shady," the competitor sounds like he is conducting an open, public business. The OP OTOH is trying to shut down a competitor that his employer should easily beat on cost and time efficiency on most projects, but apparently is choosing not to, he's looking for guildism to protect profit - shady.

This is where I'm at with it.

If he's doing good work, and the PE is checking his work, then good for both of them. Would you be screaming if the PE built an LLC, hired the dude, and then gave the dude all the revenues less his stamping fee? That's all an "actual engineering company" is.

Maybe what you need to do is offer to stamp his drawings for a fee.



Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[Terratek]

Nobody likes losing work to bottom feeders. Not sure where you got the idea that your clients are not fair game for anybody out there in there in the world regardless of previous affiliations.

 

[John R Kupcha]

The right thing to do is simple. If the Civil PE is not stamping civil plans then there is a possibility he his signing outside his expertise. In any event he his violating one canon and that is because he is required to supervise the designer. He will also have a specified amount of time to produce the elaborate and descriptive engineers report of the system he sealed . Report his ass to the board.