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Hybrid Battery Life and replacement Cost 5
- Thread starter MJMurphy
- Start date
MacGyverS2000
Electrical
If memory serves, almost the cost of the entire car to replace the batteries 
And if I remember correctly on lifetime, too, expect about 5 before they need replacement. Suddenly that "deal" doesn't sound so good after all, eh?
Dan
Owner
And if I remember correctly on lifetime, too, expect about 5 before they need replacement. Suddenly that "deal" doesn't sound so good after all, eh?Dan
Owner
These hybrid cars seem to suffer from very low resale value for that exact reason.
Even if you spend many thousands on a new battery, it does not then become a brand new car. There will still be all the usual wear and tear on the engine, drivetrain and brakes, just as with any other car.
If you take into account depreciation as part of the total daily running cost, I suspect the total running costs of these hybrids may not look so attractive.
Even if you spend many thousands on a new battery, it does not then become a brand new car. There will still be all the usual wear and tear on the engine, drivetrain and brakes, just as with any other car.
If you take into account depreciation as part of the total daily running cost, I suspect the total running costs of these hybrids may not look so attractive.
I've found the following information by sifting through toyota documents available on the internet.
The following Toyota warranty statements reflect how far they are going to go out on a limb.
Toyota's Prius warranty is 8 years / 100,000 miles on the hybrid system components e.g. inverter, electric motor, generator, and nickel metal hydride battery.
Their documentation states the expected life of the nickel metal hydride batteries is 150,000 miles "based on laboratory bench testing". The remainder of the vehicle is the typical 3 years/36,000 miles.
Anidotial comments from my local Toyota service manager, (whom I've known for about 25 years and has shared freely what he knows on a number of technical questions) indicated they alway have some number of Prius that have crossed the 200,000 mile point on the original batteries.
Also, the service procedure does allow for replacing one or some of the (total 28 7.2v) batteries on their third generation design if there were to be an isolated early life failure. I believe the 2005 production was the first year of the third generation design.
Also I've read the batteries are typically only charged to about the 60% point as apparently this is the sweet spot for maximizing nickel metal hydride battery life at the expense of trading off additional battery reserve. This also leaves headroom for regenerative braking.
The other key difference in the nickel metal hydride batteries (developed by Panasonic for Toyota) are references in some of the literature to a "prismortal (sp?) design" that allow for very high inrush and outgo currents.. Haven't found any technical info on this..
That's all I've been able to find out so far..
The following Toyota warranty statements reflect how far they are going to go out on a limb.
Toyota's Prius warranty is 8 years / 100,000 miles on the hybrid system components e.g. inverter, electric motor, generator, and nickel metal hydride battery.
Their documentation states the expected life of the nickel metal hydride batteries is 150,000 miles "based on laboratory bench testing". The remainder of the vehicle is the typical 3 years/36,000 miles.
Anidotial comments from my local Toyota service manager, (whom I've known for about 25 years and has shared freely what he knows on a number of technical questions) indicated they alway have some number of Prius that have crossed the 200,000 mile point on the original batteries.
Also, the service procedure does allow for replacing one or some of the (total 28 7.2v) batteries on their third generation design if there were to be an isolated early life failure. I believe the 2005 production was the first year of the third generation design.
Also I've read the batteries are typically only charged to about the 60% point as apparently this is the sweet spot for maximizing nickel metal hydride battery life at the expense of trading off additional battery reserve. This also leaves headroom for regenerative braking.
The other key difference in the nickel metal hydride batteries (developed by Panasonic for Toyota) are references in some of the literature to a "prismortal (sp?) design" that allow for very high inrush and outgo currents.. Haven't found any technical info on this..
That's all I've been able to find out so far..
....more interesting reading with the following google search
on the terms: panasonic prismatic hybrid metal hydride
on the terms: panasonic prismatic hybrid metal hydride
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- #6
My neighbor is a Ford dealer and they recently sent two of their master technicians to a Ford training school for their new Escape Hybrid. One of the techs asked the instructor about battery life and they were told that there has not yet been one confirmed full failure of a battery pack (Toyota builds the Synergy Hybrid system for Ford) and that the failure of several cells will not cause a full pack failure. Panasonic's control system has the capability of monitoring the battery packs health and make charging and discharging adjustments as needed.
He went as far as to say that given the full history of the battery pack service, that there have been relatively few failures and most Ford dealers will not stock a replacement battery pack for warranty and in-service replacement.
Franz
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He went as far as to say that given the full history of the battery pack service, that there have been relatively few failures and most Ford dealers will not stock a replacement battery pack for warranty and in-service replacement.
Franz
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2
- #7
Strictly anecdotal...As I've mentioned before, I'm not a great fan of these over priced hybrids, not cost effective in the overall picture, IMO. However, my tax accountant has had two of the Toyota Prius since they first came out. He is positively rabid about them. One car is his wife's and has considerably less than 100,000 miles and her only complaint was that the engine kept stalling every time she came to a stop (oh well)...the other (purchased used) is now something over 200,000 miles and he has only had it in for a fix of some sensor that made it hard to start when it was cold. Nothing more...pretty good quality as I see it but, they are still cheap, plastic, uncomfortable little POS (I would feel more comfortable in the new Lexus hybrid if it cost less than 60g's). On that same note, as I see it, the Prius will amortize out at something like "junk yard" time if you can stand to live with it that long, I certainly could not...maybe at HALF that MSRP...Naaaaa still rather get standard car of equal cost should I ever entertain the idea.
Rod
(oh well)...the other (purchased used) is now something over 200,000 miles and he has only had it in for a fix of some sensor that made it hard to start when it was cold. Nothing more...pretty good quality as I see it but, they are still cheap, plastic, uncomfortable little POS (I would feel more comfortable in the new Lexus hybrid if it cost less than 60g's). On that same note, as I see it, the Prius will amortize out at something like "junk yard" time if you can stand to live with it that long, I certainly could not...maybe at HALF that MSRP...Naaaaa still rather get standard car of equal cost should I ever entertain the idea.Rod
Chuckles159
Electrical
CNNFN.com had a story about the Prius and the savings. Turns out gas has to be $9.20 a gallon for the life of the car to make you come out ahead. $5.60 a gallon for the Escape Hybrid.
Myself, by driving sanely and using cruise control on the highway, I always beat the EPA mileage by 20% or better, considering the average most people get is 15% below EPA.
Myself, by driving sanely and using cruise control on the highway, I always beat the EPA mileage by 20% or better, considering the average most people get is 15% below EPA.
I'm confused..
What is it about a little $21,500 car (yes my dealer is selling them at list and no more) that requires $9.20 gallon gas to justify?
That's pretty cheap as cars goes these days (and the sticker price of a Prius I've driven a couple of times).
What does it take to justify a Merecedes, BMW or $45,000 Excursion or Yukon?
Is it pounds of steel you get per dollar? feet per dollar? bling per dollar?
Help me understand.
What is it about a little $21,500 car (yes my dealer is selling them at list and no more) that requires $9.20 gallon gas to justify?
That's pretty cheap as cars goes these days (and the sticker price of a Prius I've driven a couple of times).
What does it take to justify a Merecedes, BMW or $45,000 Excursion or Yukon?
Is it pounds of steel you get per dollar? feet per dollar? bling per dollar?
Help me understand.
Easy, Dan. If it wasn't for all the 'hybrid' stuff, the car would sell for $12,000 dollars and still get 35mpg.
Let's not forget, those 60mpg figures are mostly a figment of some marketing type's imagination. Robert gets about 45 and his wife gets a bit better. I have a 1959 Nash Metropolitan that gets 39mpg on a regular basis! I made a trip from Los Angeles to the east and back in a 1960 Austin-Healy Sprite and AVERAGED 39 mpg holding 65 mph wherever possible!!!
Rod
Let's not forget, those 60mpg figures are mostly a figment of some marketing type's imagination. Robert gets about 45 and his wife gets a bit better. I have a 1959 Nash Metropolitan that gets 39mpg on a regular basis! I made a trip from Los Angeles to the east and back in a 1960 Austin-Healy Sprite and AVERAGED 39 mpg holding 65 mph wherever possible!!!
Rod
Some of those older model cars are ideal candidates for being petrol misers. Often they are smaller and lighter, and are not weighed down with power steering, airconditioning, sound deadening and all the other luxuries that modern small cars usually have standard these days.
A light weight vehicle, with high compression engine, low exhaust back pressure, decent valve timing, and a really well tuned carby and ignition, can have surprising fuel economy if sensibly driven and maintained.
The depreciation will probably have fallen to about zero. It may well actually increase in value as a unique collectible vehicle.
A light weight vehicle, with high compression engine, low exhaust back pressure, decent valve timing, and a really well tuned carby and ignition, can have surprising fuel economy if sensibly driven and maintained.
The depreciation will probably have fallen to about zero. It may well actually increase in value as a unique collectible vehicle.
Funny... the last time I bought a comparably equipped Toyota for anywhere near $12,000 was 1988.. We still have it and it's getting 30mpg with 242,000 miles on it....will probably junk it or give it away at 300,000 miles.
I guess the 54mpg I got in local driving in a rented Prius was a figment of my imagination..
I guess the 54mpg I got in local driving in a rented Prius was a figment of my imagination..
Sooo. If your Toyota gets 30 mpg averaged over 100,000 miles... fuel cost at $3/gal. yields about 10g's.
100,000 miles at 54mpg is about $5500...
Using 15,000 miles per year you save about $56 a month.
Different strokes for different folks.
If your happy in a Prius, great. It's not for me. With my wife spending more than $20 a week at Starbucks :-( , it's gonna take a lot more than 56 bucks to get me all lathered up over 'hybrid technology'. Sorry!
Rod
100,000 miles at 54mpg is about $5500...
Using 15,000 miles per year you save about $56 a month.
Different strokes for different folks.
If your happy in a Prius, great. It's not for me. With my wife spending more than $20 a week at Starbucks :-( , it's gonna take a lot more than 56 bucks to get me all lathered up over 'hybrid technology'. Sorry!
Rod
Few of us that commute daily to work will see much running at 65Mph these days, with radar and cops everywhere it is just no longer advisable.
The only really serious disadvantage of driving an old model car that I can see is physical safety. If you get crunched under a SUV, your chances may be somewhat less than in something more recent.
But in sheer miles driven per dollar, a well maintained older car will always beat the latest new model, even if it drinks a lot more fuel.
The only really serious disadvantage of driving an old model car that I can see is physical safety. If you get crunched under a SUV, your chances may be somewhat less than in something more recent.
But in sheer miles driven per dollar, a well maintained older car will always beat the latest new model, even if it drinks a lot more fuel.
That's my point, Dan.---If you really love to tinker with modern technology (?) that's great. Just don't try to disguise it as cost effective reality. A used car in good shape is a much better deal if you really want to save.
From my end, I've been riding bikes since 1949...not because they got great mileage...because they are really great fun. I bought my last Gold Wing because it was really comfortable and trouble free---53 mpg did not turn me off, though! Motorcycles are NOT cost effective when it comes to overall cost in the long haul yet sales are up because folks want to 'save on gas'!!!
My old cars? I mostly just 'tinker' with them. I like my AC on a 100f day like today.
As to 65 in a Sprite? I guess you really would flip if you saw me at California Speedway last September clocked at 121+mph off turn 2 in a 1963 Austin Cooper ;-)!
Rod
Yep, I'll admit to memory glitches...on occasion I've started toward my shop, some 100 or so feet, reached the half way point, stopped and tried to figure WHY I was going out to my shop! ;-)
I intended no offense, Dan. IMO, hybrids (at least the current offerings) are just a 'feel good' measure to assure the 'unwashed' that technology is 'fixing' our gas crises and all is well..."keep buying our stuff".
Rod
I intended no offense, Dan. IMO, hybrids (at least the current offerings) are just a 'feel good' measure to assure the 'unwashed' that technology is 'fixing' our gas crises and all is well..."keep buying our stuff".
Rod
patprimmer
New member
DanEE
Just a word of advice, go look up Rod's profile (just click on the name at the top of the post).
It should indicate that his advice is always worth consideration, and a cheap shot is not advised. Come to think of it, cheap shots are against forum rules.
I read your posts, and came to similar conclusions to Rod.
Regards
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
Just a word of advice, go look up Rod's profile (just click on the name at the top of the post).
It should indicate that his advice is always worth consideration, and a cheap shot is not advised. Come to think of it, cheap shots are against forum rules.
I read your posts, and came to similar conclusions to Rod.
Regards
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
Chuckles159
Electrical
Yes, the hybrids are a feel good measure. The small amount of gas saved is eaten up in the extra cost of buying and maintaining all the hybrid technology. Hydrogen cars are the same as there is a net energy loss in creating the hydrogen from fossil fuels or water. And it leaks from almost everything because the molecules are the smallest of all.
The long term solution is methane as motor fuel. It burns in existing cars with little modification. The taxis in Vancouver and many other places have been using it for years. For now, it comes from natural gas but it can be generated in anaerobic reactors with genetically modified bacteria from any kind of organic waste in essentially unlimited amounts. Yes, it puts carbon in the atmosphere but if we generate it from biomass, growing the biomass takes the same amount out of the atmosphere at the same time.
But one of the biggest advantages of methane is that the distribution infrastructure is mainly in place right now. All we need is the last 3 meters to the car in most places.
The long term solution is methane as motor fuel. It burns in existing cars with little modification. The taxis in Vancouver and many other places have been using it for years. For now, it comes from natural gas but it can be generated in anaerobic reactors with genetically modified bacteria from any kind of organic waste in essentially unlimited amounts. Yes, it puts carbon in the atmosphere but if we generate it from biomass, growing the biomass takes the same amount out of the atmosphere at the same time.
But one of the biggest advantages of methane is that the distribution infrastructure is mainly in place right now. All we need is the last 3 meters to the car in most places.
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