Hydrogen Injection to Promote Clean Burn

[Cburg]

Hi Forum!
Is anyone familiar with this technology?
I have been invested with a company (HLNT) that sold these units, and am looking at another (HPTG). They use a hydrogen electrolysis generator with a PWM control, and inject the gas into the fuel/air mixture. The process seems to work well on older, mechanically injected engines, but with new computer controlled, there are challenges. The oxygen sensors fight the hydrogen enhanced fuel mixture so as to increase fuel content in the mixture. In order to fix this, a circuit is necessary to be wired in series with each sensor, and tuned down so as to output the same as before hydrogen. This voids the warranty, or at least presents this fear.
What I am unsure of is whether a properly tuned newer engine will show as dramatic an improvement in operation as the older ones. There are other optimizations going on with the computer control these days for temperature, air pressure, and things like that.
Does anyone know if a newer engine can be significantly improved with one of these units (diesel in particular)?
Thanks!
Mike

 

[BrianPetersen]

Show me legitimate peer-reviewed research indicating that these systems work at all. Everything leads me to think that they are a complete load of bunk. Every one that I've ever heard of, if you actually crunch the numbers, the actual amount of hydrogen that the electrolysis unit is generating is so small that it can't possibly be of any significance whatsoever inside the engine OR if the amount of hydrogen is significant then the amount of electrical draw is beyond any hope of being practical.

So, no, they don't work.

 

[PJGD]

Not only that, but in the case of any modern emissions compliant diesel engine using a common rail system, and assuming the H2 is fumigated into the intake ahead of the compressor, then the pilot injection (which virtually all light duty engines use particularly at light load) ignites the H2 which all burns immediately and using up some of the oxygen which leaves the rest of the diesel fuel struggling to find the remaining oxygen among the EGR. The result is typically higher smoke than the base calibration.

PJGD

 

[gruntguru]

1. There is usually enough surplus oxygen in a turbo diesel engine to support a significant increase in fuel.

2. If an electrolysis system is used, it will typically be adding H2 and O2 in stoichiometric proportions. Even if some intake air is displaced, it is mostly Nitrogen.

3. An oxygen sensor controlled feedback system will reduce the fuel injected when hydrogen is added to the intake.

4. Yes these systems are highly energy negative. Probably less than 50% of the electrical energy is splitting water. Using an ICE to recover work from the hydrogen is only 30 - 40% efficient leaving a round-trip efficiency of less than 20%. (ie the alternator consumes at least 5 times the extra power produced at the crankshaft)

The only benefit will arise if traces of hydrogen are able to improve the combustion efficiency of the primary fuel. (possible in a low efficiency engine)

je suis charlie

 

[ZephTheChef]

I went so far as burning up a couple alternators back about 10 years ago attempting to create enough "HHO" to make a measureable difference at all. That was a VERY large plate, probably at least 20x the capacity of most of the "kits" you see...and still really did a whole lot of nothing. Generating these gases via electrolysis is an extremely inefficient process and very much a net negative.

 

[BrianPetersen]

On another automotive-related website, we had to ban discussion of this topic to keep the quacks out. A couple of engineers (myself included) discussed the matter, and the opinion to ban "junk science" was unanimous. One thorough de-bunking post was written and all further discussion of the subject was off limits. A few quacks have tried nevertheless.

 

[moltenmetal]

The question is, where do they think the extra efficiency would be coming from?

It isn't from burning the stuff remaining in the exhaust post-combustion more efficiently, because we know the composition and the mass flow- there just isn't enough unburned stuff in the exhaust to make sufficient energy for a significant efficiency improvement.

If the claim is increased temperature, then the obvious problem with that is NOx generation.

If these "HHO" (a misnomer- the electrolysis stream consists of H2, O2 and water vapour, not hydrogen and oxygen atoms!) systems do anything, it is to phreak the emission controls on vehicles to allow them to run at conditions which are more efficient at the expense of noncompliant emissions- particularly NOx. If you want to do that, the best way to do it is with software (as VW discovered), not by dragging around a lossy electrolyzer!

 

[bradrs]

I've had several interactions with some of the people working on this stuff.

One of the "HHO" companies contacted me to ask me to make an oxygen sensor fooling circuit to lean the vehicle out. Judging by their description of an O2 sensor output, they really didn't understand much about the vehicle electronics they were tapping in to.

Another time, I was asked to look at a circuit they were using for some of the gas generation. It was really poorly designed, sketched by hand using transistors that were outdated in the 1970s. And the way it was wired, I'd say it was a danger underhood. I actually agreed to help them out on this. Not because I had any belief the system would work, but just so I could show them how to clean up their wiring and prevent the risk of underhood fires.

It seems like there is a good crossover between these "HHO" or "Brown gas" people and the Noble gas engine people. And when you do research into it, there is a lot of crossover between those and other crackpot perpetual motion junk.

Sorry you wasted your money on the practically worthless investment. If you sell a few thousand shares, you might have enough $ to buy a lottery ticket. That has better odds of paying off, IMHO.

 

[Panther140]

If you want attainable DIY renewable fuel source, look into wood gas or veggy oil if you don't like spark plugs

"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin