Continue to Site

Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet

Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals

  • Congratulations GregLocock on being selected by the Eng-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!

Hydrostatic Test Failure 6

Status
Not open for further replies.
I came across a YouTube Video yesterday that has completely changed my thinking on hydrostatic testing vs. pneumatic testing. First, after a lot of digging, I found some of the details on the line:
[ul]
[li]ANSI 600 line[/li]
[li]Test was a fully degassed hydrostatic test (water for the test had been loaded 2 days before the test and allowed to degas)[/li]
[li]Tested to 130% of MAWP (1870 psig test pressure)[/li]
[li]All fittings and pipe were U.S. made[/li]
[li]All welds around the failure passed x-ray[/li]
[li]The line was owned by one of the largest pipeline companies in the U.S.[/li]
[li]The construction contractor had done hundreds of hydrostatic tests for that particular pipeline company and others[/li]
[li]The test was done following a procedure that had been reviewed both by the engineering contractor and the pipeline company[/li]
[/ul]
My eyeball is not well calibrated, but it looks like 30-inch pipe, but it might be smaller. I took a screen capture from the video to show the failure point
Ch06Fig32_a5th0d.jpg

You can see from the picture that the failure started next to the weld, not in the weld.

I watched the video and asked myself "where did the energy come from to tear out a flap of steel and bend it up 90° against the curve of the pipe?" That was a huge force.

That is when I realized that the bulk modulus (i.e., the amount of pressure that would decrease the volume by 1%) of water is 319,000 psia, so to reach 1870 psig you would have to add 0.006% of the system volume. I looked at the enthalpy of the water at rest and the enthalpy of the water at test pressure and found a 5.3 BTU/lbm change. For a test that was more than a few joints long, W=m*ΔH+Δm*h turns out to be a really really big number. Archimedes Principle says that a force applied (or removed) from a closed volume will be transmitted everywhere within the closed volume, so this huge energy acts like a coiled spring that releases its entire energy at the failure point.

I've talked on this site many times about the errors in the NASA Glenn Research Methodology used by many to calculate the energy of a pneumatic test. Primarily my point has been that there is no way for distant mass to "know" about a failure and the mass that participates in a in a failure is limited to a few joints worth of gas.

The change in my position is that I've always been a bit defensive about the use of pneumatic tests, but I was wrong to be defensive. The energy available to strike nearby workers is far higher in a pipeline hydrostatic test than a pipeline pneumatic test. If we assume that the failure in the video was 5 miles of 30-inch pipe, then I calculate that the energy release in a pneumatic test would be 0.2% of the energy that could be released in a hydrostatic test. Yep, pneumatic tests are irresponsibly dangerous. NOT.


[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
Interesting. I think you are trying to say - a pneumatic test is limited by sonic speed of the fluid to some distance (the participating fluid will only extend for x meters of pipe before sonic choking will reduce the flow rate of gas into/through the rupture)? And the speed of sound in the "incompressible fluid" (water) being some 10x higher will mean that more of the fluid will be able to "participate" in the energy release?
 
In pneumatic decompression there can be considerable damage to nearby structures due to the pressure shock wave. I do not think the photographers of the test video would be alive if the pipe had been full of air. Also, in a pneumatic failure I think there may be an effect where the failure crack will move a far greater distance because the crack moves toward the pressure since the pressure takes longer to decay and to move toward the crack. Popping an air balloon is more violent than popping a water balloon.
 
Popping an air balloon is more violent than popping a water balloon.
Yes, you can watch a water balloon's failure progress at the event and certainly not with an air balloon.

What would be the velocity differences between liquid and gas at rupture at the immediate rupture scene? Might there be a kinetic component to the evolving rupture that would promote 'peeling' results.

Interesting point David.

Keith Cress
kcress -
 
Can't tell much from this picture but is it possible this large outlet T was not adequately reinforced for that high level of pressure imposed, and once the steel fractured it didn't take near as much force for the water rushing out to bend the flap back. Not sure in any case how this failure would relate to the healthy pneumatic vs water testing safety debate, as we don't even know whether all air was even removed from this line.
 
If that's 30" pipe, then that must be a 20 kg cigarette butt up right. 8" pipe maybe.

I personally saw a buried 30" blow under hydrotest a long time ago. Under an asphalt parking lot. It was a mess. There was dirt and asphalt chunks hitting cars 100ft away. If it had been a pneumatic test, I'm sure nothing would have happened. NOT!

There's a debate about pneumatic vs hydro testing safety? I thought the debate was about if pneumatic testing could ever be made as safe as hydro (relatively speaking), given that at times pneumatic testing might be more convenient and is permitted under some codes, if no practical alternatives are available, but nobody has ever said to my knowledge that it is actually safer to do pneumatic testing ... until now??? Really? I'd like to stop the conjecture. Where's the proof? Has NASA admitted they are wrong? One of our members has new calculations to show us? There is new evidence somewhere? Or is it YouTube, Urban Mythbusters ...? Where?

B31.4 prohibits pneumatic tests.
B31.8 allows, but with condition of the impracticality of hydrotesting, which I take to be that there is no water available, but which others feel that it means water, or hydrotesting itself, is too expensive to be practical (ie. That's what a good lawyer can do)

 
BI - watch the video. Probably more like a 24" line.

Key thing for me is why on earth were they testing what is clearly supposed to be a buried system without burial?? The extra stress caused by hydro which is not being restrained or supported by the soil is enough to cause failure, not withstanding what appears to be alack of fusion on the weld which is my guess as to the root cause.

Hydro vs pneumatic has been done to death here and by zdas04s engineering guild paper.

I must admit I have changed my mind from "no way" to "has merits in certain locations and conditions". Any pressurised system of a decent volume has the potential for damage at a local level whether filled with air or water.

I didn't follow the equation in the OP I'm afraid, but even looking at the video you can see there is a very short term effect which would be greater with pneumatic, so safer?? Don't think so - could be made acceptably safe - Yes.

B 31.4 allows pneumatic testing for system operating below 20% of SMYS as a leak test so maybe doesn't qualify directly as a strength test.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
 
I think BI is right, an 8" line, look at the waterhose at the side, that's approxx 15mm.
Thrust a practical man, LI.
 
I know my butts.
 
According to the measure tool in Acrobat, if that 2X2 stick is 1.5 inches on a side, the pipe is 24 inch. But so what (other than BigInch actually doesn't know his butts from a hole in the ground)?

I reran the math with 8-inch and got the same results. BigInch, you didn't address my point at all. You sound like the global warming zealots when you say
BigInch said:
Where's the proof? Has NASA admitted they are wrong? One of our members has new calculations to show us?
Where did the energy to bend that pipe come from? If it wasn't from decompressing the water then where did it come from? I am really disappointed in this discussion.

Btrueblood,
No, I'm saying that in a liquid system the energy can be transmitted without significant mass flow much like a spring uncoiling. In a gas the energy transfer requires mass flow which is limited to sonic velocity.

CompositePro,
Popping an air-filled balloon is not more violent than popping a water balloon. The mass flow simply expresses differently, instead of the majority of the energy expressing as sound it expresses as fluid velocity. You can see the difference and the similarities in high speed video (which is available on YouTube if you want to look for it, it is pretty interesting)

LittleInch,
What does it matter? Had it been underground when it blew the forces would have been applied differently, but what does that have to do with anything?

If this subject were really "done to death" then I don't think I would be being attacked like I am in this thread. I think all of the locked in "NASA said it, it must be right" mindset is blocking rational discussion.

rconnor,
What? In my OP I said
OP said:
Test was a fully degassed hydrostatic test (water for the test had been loaded 2 days before the test and allowed to degas)
And then you say "we don't even know if the air was removed from this line".

All,
I have been working with some researchers in another country (the details are under an NDA) that did a series of experiments that found the force exerted by a failed pneumatic test was independent of pipe length after a (very short) minimum, less than 2 joints of pipe) for a given size pipe. The data showed vividly that only the gas that could get there at 1.0 Mach in about 0.02 seconds participated in the explosion. I wish I could share the details, but I can't so please reject this out of hand because it doesn't fit with your preconceived ideas.

I give the hell up. If anyone wants to think for themselves, please ponder the idea that hydrostatic testes are dangerous. Pneumatic tests are dangerous. The mechanism of the energy transfer allows more energy to participate in a large-volume hydrostatic test than in the same volume pneumatic test.


[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
Must be more like a cigar then - unless this guy's a pigmy that's a 24" pipe.

I know my pipe sizes, thank you.

pipe_burst_szxivn.jpg


Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
 
Global warming again???

Continued expansion of a gas behind travelling particles continuously propels the particles until the expanding gas has reached ambient pressure.

LI thanks for reminding us about the B31.4 test option for <20% SMYS. I don't usually mention it, since we know "pipelines" aren't practical to build to <20% SMYS and the safety factor during testing, hydro or pneumatic, would be so enormous even I wouldn't have any objection whatsoever to pneumatic testing such a pipe.

OK 24". That's the biggest controversy I see here, including climate change. I get National Geographic cable TV.
 
Dave - "what does it matter"? It matters because they shouldn't have been testing it like that - there are more forces and stress on the tee than there should be / it was designed for. Also some of the energy is taken up by moving the earth out of the way....

I really didn't get this bit - can you explain further?

I looked at the enthalpy of the water at rest and the enthalpy of the water at test pressure and found a 5.3 BTU/lbm change[heat energy?]. For a test that was more than a few joints long, W=m*ΔH+Δm*h [units please and an explanation] turns out to be a really really big number. Archimedes Principle says that a force applied (or removed) from a closed volume will be transmitted everywhere within the closed volume, so this huge energy acts like a coiled spring that releases its entire energy at the failure point.

Also surely the point made before about pneumatic testing is valid here, i.e. the energy involved in an incident / burst is really quite local to the incident, so how are you now saying "....releases its [highlight #FCE94F]entire[/highlight] energy at the failure point"?? The mechanism ofr energy / pressure pulse must run at speed of sound in liquid as well surely. - similar principle to pressure surge from sudden valve closure.

I've never come across this mysterious NASA paper - maybe you attached it or included it in previous discussions - I can't recall - so I'm not blinded by something I've never seen.

I don't think anyone has said any high pressure test isn't potentially dangerous, just one type is generally less risky than another type.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
 
Quite true. Both are dangerous. One is less risky than the other, given that both are conducted according to best practice, however keep in mind that a 75psig hydrotest burst of a tank, such as the smallest air compressor might have, can pack more than enough energy to kill.
 
LittleInch,
Specific enthalpy of water at atmospheric pressure and 60F is 28.137 BTU/lbm. Specific entropy of water at 1887 psia and 60F is 33.409 BTU/lbm. If I must add 300 lbm of water to get 23 million lbm of water up to test pressure then:
Wstored = 23,000,300 lbm * 5.272 BTU/lbm = 121 million BTU

Then I need to account for the mass that has to leave to get back to atmospheric pressure
Wejected=300 lbm * 28.137 BTU/lbm = 0.844 million BTU

An incompressible fluid in a closed container acts as a rigid body (like a spring). That means that if the rigid body is allowed to move, the entire 121.8 MMBTU of energy is applied at the point of movement as fast as the point of movement can accept it (very very fast). Once that energy is expended, the water will leak out if it can or it will simply stand in the pipe if the failure was physically higher than connected water volumes. I think of this like the push-rod and rocker arm on an internal combustion engine--if the rod doesn't bend then all of the energy of the spring is applied to moving the valve with nothing lost in shifting mass in the intervening linkages.

A compressed gas does not act as a rigid body and transferring its stored energy requires mass transfer which is limited to the speed of sound. Once the explosive decompression event is completed (between 20 and 50 mS according to experiments done at the University of Nebraska and repeated at other facilities that I can't talk about), the rest of the stored energy is dissipated as a "blow down". We've all blown gas pipelines down and it is noisy and blows stuff around, but it isn't an "explosion".

The new conclusion that I reached when I watched the linked video is that the rate of energy transfer makes hydrostatic testing MORE dangerous than pneumatic testing and we have once again demonized the wrong thing. Not that I think anything should be demonized in this discussion (except maybe NASA and regulators/standards-writers who set regulations and standards based on an analysis that happened to have NASA's logo on it without looking for the gross flaws in the analysis). Pneumatic testing should be a tool in our tool box and very possibly should be the preferred tool for pipelines (not so much for vessels since in a vessel all of the energy is close enough to a failure to make pneumatic testing riskier than hydrostatic testing). Instead we have people getting stars for pointing out that B31.4 doesn't allow pneumatic testing or saying that the appropriate closest point of approach to a pneumatic test is the next county. That kind of fear and superstition is harmful to a rational evaluation.

The NASA Glenn Research Methodology paper seems to have been totally eradicated from the Internet, something that I didn't think was possible but whoever wanted it gone seems to be very good. At least 6 people that I know of have searched for it for years without success. I never saved a copy when it was available, mostly because it irritated me so much. Laws are based on it, and the links in the regulations get a "404 error--page not found" message.

[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
Ok, let me go back to my physics books and understand what these terms mean as ?I don't use them in everyday engineering.

However the immediate flaw to me is "An incompressible fluid in a closed container acts as a rigid body (like a spring)". True, however,

Water is not 100% incompressible.
Neither is a pipeline a classic "rigid body"
Water compresses under pressure ( Bulk modulus)
Pipe expands under pressure (Hoop stress / strain)

I am actually on your side here, but I don't think you can make the leap you're talking about based on the hypotheses above. Anyway I'll come back to this later.

LI


Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
 
Um...but water's not really incompressible, zdas, just a lot more so than a gas (air). Thus, not "all" of a 20km pipeline segement (ok, dunno, however long a pipe segement might be involved in a typical hydrotest) will participate in a rupture event, since the pressure wave can only travel some fraction of that in .02 seconds (but it's still much farther than for air, again since the speed of sound in the water is so much higher, owing to its much lower compressibility). So, I think I buy your argument (would want to do a few sims if I ever get in the position where my opinion matters on some long pipeline project) for pipelines of length on the order of 100m or more.

But I think your argument holds up less well when testing more mundane and compact things, where the longest distance to a wall/pressure boundary is on the order of meters or fractions of a meter, not kilometers. Dunno, will do some thinking and some quicky math when I get some time.

That said, we routinely pressure leak test some of our products with air, in suitably restrained fixtures, under water, and I have worked on many devices (e.g. rocket engines) where introducing water or other fluids for pressure testing could cause complications more difficult to deal with than explosive decompression. I guess when you are working on stuff that can go kablooie in normal operation, you have more bunkers and blast walls at your disposal.
 
At these pressures water is 99.994% incompressible, so just like in a hydraulic system, the liquid acts like a nearly like stick (indeed a classic "rigid body"). The bulk modulus says that the water must have compressed 0.006% to change pressure from 0 psig to 1870 psig. The pipe expansion would tend to make the issue that I'm raising more pronounced (adding an additional spring).

[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist
 
Zdas,

The vessel expansion/contraction is the same regardless of the test fluid, right? It is part of the energy release, though, and that adds yet another transient with its own characteristic time/length/speed contribution. I worked on a hypersonic cannon project as a grad student, and the math for that pipeline got hairy fast.
But do you get my point about the vessel shape and dimension (i.e. 20km pipeline vs. a 35 gallon barrel) playing into the discussion?
 
I have hydrostatically tested numerous pipes, 16" diameter and under x std wall to burst. You do not want to be near when it happens.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Part and Inventory Search

Sponsor