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I asked this question before in the past, but now I need to know.

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Lenny123

Lenny123

Mechanical
Apr 25, 2007
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I have designed and received a patent for a ZERO FLOAT VALVE for the internal combustion engine. I noticed that at two key points in its operation that it could actually capture lost energy during the exhaust stroke of the engine. I designed this for use in the commercial industry, works for cars also.
Does anyone know of any other design that can do this or is this a first?
I also like to know if anyone has ever built an engine using a zero float valve system to the same specifications as a poppet valve engine. I like to know what the difference in horse power was.

Regards
Lenny123
 
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I had expected as much. I'm sure Steve Jobs had his critics as well, look where apple is now.

As for any friction problems oil solves that problem. This sliding valve does not enter the cylinder so it can be as large as needed, so as well the open ports. There are now materials that can be made that are self lubricating. It's just a question of putting together the right design that works. My design is just a basic one that explains how it functions . This works for the USPTO. The changing part is coming up with the right design for the compression seals 156 in my drawing. The outside diameter of the valve guide could be smaller than the compression seals 156 inside diameter avoiding friction, up to a point. The valve guide could be then tapered at the fully closed position. The compression seals would ride up this taper creating a perfect seal. The inside of the compression seals 156 can be tapered as well to match the taper on the valve guide. During compression the pressure would force the compression seals 156 down and around the valve guide.
 
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PatPrimmer, maybe it is... but just take a look at this and tell me it's not a thing of beauty: .

I don't know, rotary and sleeve valves always had a strange appeal for me- years ago I've even dabbled with designing a variable timing rotary valve for two strokes (until someone 'in the know' showed me ridiculousness of the design and burst my soap bubble).
 
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Sure, rotary valves have a lot of appeal for airflow, however they have so far unsolvable friction or sealing problems, hence the universal adoption of poppet or piston port valves where direct combustion pressure and temperature is seen.

Why does everyone with a stupid idea think they are as smart as Steve Jobs.

As far as I know, Steve Jobs never even tried to suggest a sleeve valve was a good thing for sealing exhaust gas in an Otto cycle IC piston engine.

Regards
Pat
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Patprimmer, your post is less of a discouragement for an idea I'm currently thinking of than you'd hope for... I'm no Steve Jobs caliber of innovator (admittedly, I'm yet to come up with *any* useful novelty), but your post seems to leave open the possibility that a simple disc valve could be used on intake side a bit away from the combustion pressure and temperature*?

* would I say a bit too much if I remarked that poppet valve on the intake would be used as well?
 
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The intake is certainly an easier application than the exhaust.

Disc and reed valves have been used on 2 strokes to supplement piston port, but they have always been partly protected by the piston port valve.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &
for site rules
 
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Actualy, that *is* my novelty- I'm contemplating feasibility of crankcase compression for 4 stroke engines (and for that I'd need a valve to let in the air in the crankcase every two revolutions- and disc valve spinning at half the crankshaft rpm would seem the easiest option)... And if needed, I'd use another stolen idea- when cylinder pumps the air toward intake let it build up the pressure and release it when the cylinder is partially filled with mixture (I seem to recall Hispano Suiza used that principle sometimes early in last century on their supercharged engines).
 
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Since no one here had any positive feedback for me or even so much as a sudgestion besides dumping it, I guess i'll take my stupid idea elsewhere.
 
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"As for any friction problems oil solves that problem."

And in the same sentence, "There are now materials that can be made that are self lubricating."

so.....you don't need any oil anyway, No "problem" to solve!

and this gem, "It's just a question of putting together the right design that works."

well, duhhhh!

Going to Mars is just a question of building a spacecraft.
 
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"Since no one here had any positive feedback for me or even so much as a sudgestion besides dumping it, I guess i'll take my stupid idea elsewhere."

If you only wanted positive feedback, you should have specified.

Good job securing the patent. It's clear in your word file attachment that YOU have no interest in actually making it work, so why didn't you say "here's an interesting patent" and leave it at that?

Your first mistake is claiming it as a realistic, manufacturable design, and then (vaguely) trying to argue the case. So my positive feedback is be aware of the line between what you've established (the concept) and what you have not (everything else.)

Second mistake is making that argument here...
 
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Ok then, let me take a step back here. The bad feedback was positive for me since I didn't take into account about any friction problems. But I solved that problem with my feedback dated Dec 4 and no one commented on that part other than to say "using oil duh" or self lubrication seals all in the same sentence. Give me all your feedback good or bad, I'll work on fixing it. I wasn't looking for a pat on the back I just didn't expect everyone to dump on it that's all. If you're going to point out a problem perhaps you could point out a solution as well. That's all I'm asking ,am I asking too much?
 
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OK I'll bite. Keep in mind that the drawing given previously was a sketch of a bunch of parts - with insufficient explanation "to the rest of us" of how it works in detail.

I see the drawing and I see the "wrist-pin" at the left that is apparently meant to connect to something driven from the engine. What? How?

I see the ports in the inner piece and the outer piece. What's connected to the combustion space and what's connected to the intake/exhaust manifolds? If it works the way I think it does, that is a huuuuuuge mechanism for a relatively small flow area. And the flow area has a convoluted path, if it is what I think it is. The area of the ports in those walls is larger than the area of the inlet/outlet at the left of the drawing by far - the inlet/outlet passage will be the restriction point.

If you propose to use this as an exhaust valve, how do you propose to deal with thermal expansion? How do you propose to deal with necessary mechanical clearances and how these change with thermal expansion? Poppet valves shut against their seat with (essentially) no clearance and no leakage. If you set the valve clearance wrongly on a normal engine so that the exhaust valve is held 0.001" open rather than allowing it to shut fully, generally the engine won't start.

I'm not talking about the piston-ring-seal-gizmo between the reciprocating piece and its bore. I'm talking about the clearance between that reciprocating piece and the ports that it appears to be blocking and unblocking.
 
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I apologize for my flippant comment regarding "It's just a question of putting together the right design that works."

Getting a patent is quite an accomplishment. I certainly have never done so myself.

However, here are some who have done so:


Of those presented, here is a particular favorite on mine, variations of which have indeed reached the marketplace:


 
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Thank you Brian Pertersen for pointing all that out to me. This is the kind of feedback I'm looking for.

You can't really go by the size of the ports in that drawing. It's simply meant to explain how the flow of gases flow when working with a patent. It's a utility patent not a design patent. In the real world the ports would be much larger.

How it works.

The valve guide 104 would be stationary and the valve body 106 would slide over the valve guide 104 creating a tight seal in the fully closed position. Your right about the pin 170 it would be connected to a driving force such as a cam, much the same way as a connecting rod is to a piston.
The friction problem you mention.
Your question:
If you propose to use this as an exhaust valve, how do you propose to deal with thermal expansion? How do you propose to deal with necessary mechanical clearances and how these change with thermal expansion? Poppet valves shut against their seat with (essentially) no clearance and no leakage. If you set the valve clearance wrongly on a normal engine so that the exhaust valve is held 0.001" open rather than allowing it to shut fully, generally the engine won't start.

My response:

The outside diameter of the valve body 106 could be cut down up to the point where the compression seals 158 are to avoid friction with the sleeve 102 as the valve reciprocates to and fro. The compression rings 158 would be lubricated by the engine oil. Now the inside cavity 134 of the valve body 106 could be drilled out larger than the outside diameter of the valve guide 104 to avoid friction as well. The only point of contact or friction would be at the face 116 to 166 of the valve body 106. This is the area that holds the compression seals 156 and retaining ring 154.

Your questions:

I see the ports in the inner piece and the outer piece. What's connected to the combustion space and what's connected to the intake/exhaust manifolds? If it works the way I think it does, that is a huuuuuuge mechanism for a relatively small flow area. And the flow area has a convoluted path, if it is what I think it is. The area of the ports in those walls is larger than the area of the inlet/outlet at the left of the drawing by far - the inlet/outlet passage will be the restriction point.

My response:

Open port 118 in the valve guide 104 matches up with the open port 112 in the sleeve 102. The open port 112 in the sleeve 102 is connected to the combustion chamber. The valve body 106 slides over valve guide 104 inside the sleeve 102 blocking the flow of gases when closed and allows the flow of gases when opened.
Keep in mind that the size of the either intake or exhaust valve and ports can be as large as needed to accommodate the flow of gases. The valves do not enter the combustion chamber at all. This system can be over head configuration or a side valve configuration. Side valves were used in the 1920's 30's on some engines.

Yes the flow of gases would have to make a few turns to escape but that's the price of this design.

 
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Ask an old Ford flat head guy (side valve) about the limitations of those engines, which were produced up through '53 in the USA.

Oh wait! I'm one of those! I'll take a shot!

1. Low volumetric efficiency

2. Overheating

All BS aside, I feel you won't be able to shed the heat this thing is going to be exposed to, if used as an exhaust valve.
 
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Clearance in the mechanism (necessary to avoid friction) will result in excessive compression loss.

Compression and combustion gases filtering through all of the crevice volumes in that apparatus would lead to high heat losses and high unburned-fuel emissions.

At the same time, given the well-proven suitability of poppet valves in this application, all I see with this apparatus are disadvantages. I see no benefit to it relative to a normal cam and poppet valve arrangement.
 
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