I DON'T KNOW SYNDROME 5

[desnov74]

Hello all,

Does anyone find there to be in general an increasing amount of ignorance in the engineering community?

I think that we may be suffering from over specialization and commercialization, in the sense that we depend too heavily on vendors, old designs,simulations, and codes rather than fundamental engineering judgement.

My question concern comes from asking engineers that I work with and others in the field questions, especially those that get to fundamental why's, and I often get confusing and conflicting answers. When I was in school, when I asked questions that we practical I rarely got answers.

I've met only a few engineers that had "it" (an intuitive understanding of the fundamentals). I feel most of us, present company included, depend to heavily on software, codes, and standard methods in a design. As the addage goes, when the only tool you know is a hammer everything looks like a nail.

 

[SomptingGuy]

Tell us more about the particular incident that was the straw on this camel's back.

I would say that any engineer that depends on simulations and codes, without using fundamental engineering judgement is a bad engineer.


A typical process where I work goes along the lines of:

- Engineering judgement decides the basic layout.
- Simulation (1) validates whether that first cut holds water.
- Design decides where best to cut the metal.
- Simulation (2) trims and tunes.
- Prototypes prove.

- Steve

 

[bvanhiel]

Engineering, like medicine, is a huge field that is continuously growing. It's impossible to know everything, even just the "fundamentals" when there are innumerable fields and specialties.

You list your expertise as electrical. I'm sure there are things that you consider fundamental that I'm ignorant of and vice-versa.

I'm not saying that all engineers are equal. I've met good, bad and indifferent. But I recognize that those that I think "get it" are usually ones that share the same corner of the engineering world that I do.

 

[COEngineeer]

Codes get more and more complicated and sometime they are geared so engineers will use software. For example in structural engineering, wind and earthquake loading is very difficult to do it all by hand. If you do do it by hand, you wont have any more hours left to work on the project.

Never, but never question engineer's judgement

 

[csd72]

desnov,

What you describe also happens in my industry, and it seems to be a global thing.

Increasing complexity of codes, the use of computer for everything, complex designs, all add up.

The amount of times I have been asked for a code reference regarding something that is obvious from engineering first principles...

 

[ctopher]

I don't think it is only in engineering, it is everywhere. Computers have made a lot of people stupidandlazy so we hear a lot of "I dunno!".

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Apr 30, 2008)

 

[Unotec]

I do not mind the "dunno" answer that much, as long as it is followed by a "but I can find/figure it out". An engineer is not and should not be expected to have answers for everything. But a true engineer should know how and where to look for answers and evaluate them. And more important, not to rely on a source until he/she has been satisfied that it is a reliable one. At least that is how I do things now that I know how little I know.

<<A good friend will bail you out of jail, but a true friend
will be sitting beside you saying ” Damn that was fun!” - Unknown>>

 

[Gymmeh]

Usually if someone asks me a question, I have to ask them 10 questions back to collect enough information to solve their problem and get back to them later.

I don’t think saying “ I don’t know” is a bad thing, it is better then someone feeding you horse puckey!!

However I prefer the answers, “I will look into it and let you know tomorrow.”

 

[jmw]

Saying "I don't know" is often a convenient way of saying "I don't have time to help you but if I say "I don't have time" you'll just want to know when I will have time and then I'm committed to spending some of my time on your problem whereas if I say I don't know." there is no further discussion."

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[drawoh]

desnov74,

Often, "I do not know." is an honest and profesional answer to a question.

JHG

 

[desnov74]

WOW! Thanks for everybody's response.

I agree that engineering is changing rapidly, and that admitting ignorance is often the correct answer. Still, I see these things in myself and others. My concern is for the overall state profession, and for developing myself into a better engineer.

1) Is that the current state of engineering education is way too simulation/software based. I think first principles need to be drilled into undergrad. I learned more in my 300 junior year level classes than at any other time. All the senior level work and graduate work was just an extension of this. I always had a real problem learning from professors who never did anything other than teach. They are a dangerous bunch as a whole. Professors who worked in industry, seem to have been more rooted, and understood the theory much better.

2) The second problem I believe is that we are way too "vendor driven". We are not examining things further than what the "experts" tell us at lunch and learns. They have a bias to sell, I think we can not accept what they say at face value. Thus seems to create an attitude to do the minimum, and avoid all liability. We need to assume responsibility for our designs.

3) The area of being code driven is related to #2. When we design, we almost never consider alternatives to code or to going above code for A or B reason. I believe we have to be more proactive and assertive.

 

[csd72]

As a friend used to say in response to people using computers all the time:
"engineers should be more than just technicians".

By that he meant that you should understand all the reasons why you do things and not just blindly follow regulations/rules of paractice/computer programs e.t.c. He also meant that technically you should be able to do what the computer does by hand, even if you never actually do it.

 

[btrueblood]

"I learned more in my 300 junior year level classes than at any other time."

I've never stopped learning. When I did slow down in how much I was learning, I got bored, and changed jobs not too long afterwards. Multiple times. It's one of the reasons I like reading these forums, I usually learn quite a bit about aspects of engineering that I'm not currently directly involved in.

"I learned more in my 300 junior year level classes than at any other time. All the senior level work and graduate work was just an extension of this."

You had some lousy senior level prof's. then. My senior design prof. kicked my butt; I spent more time in the library learning new stuff in that class than for any other class (he just expected us to go find it out, no textbook, no lecture, if you didn't know then why aren't you down in the library finding it the #^#$ out?). I then became his TA for the course as a grad. student...and he again kicked my butt, expected me to work twice as hard on the design project as the BS students did.

I carried that lesson (learn it without being told, and do it quickly) to every job since then, and it has served me well.

"I always had a real problem learning from professors who never did anything other than teach. They are a dangerous bunch as a whole. Professors who worked in industry, seem to have been more rooted, and understood the theory much better."

Um, I learned more from professors who wanted to teach what they knew, and expected me to learn it. I learned little from professors who treated the teaching part of their jobs as a necessary evil, and put in their time until they could get back to whatever pet research project they were working on. Industry experience didn't matter much, one of the best teaching prof's I ever studied under had little job experience as a corporate engineer...but he had a lot of time in doing consulting work for a variety of corporations, they came and sought his help.

 

[SomptingGuy]

I've never stopped learning. When I did slow down in how much I was learning, I got bored, and changed jobs not too long afterwards.

Here here!

I gradually realised after 5 years in my first (real) job that my learning curve was starting to get a flat. Time to move on. If it ever gets flat again I'll do the same.

- Steve

 

[prohammy]

SomptingGuy,

Become a contractor, the issue of being at a company long enough for your learning curve to get flat never seems to rear its head.


Kevin

“It is a mathematical fact that fifty percent of all doctors graduate in the bottom half of their class." ~Author Unknown

"If two wrongs don't make a right, try three." ~Author Unknown

 

[prohammy]

Actually, forget that. I have been at one company where I genuinely was stagnating.... and I up sticks and left.

Kevin

“It is a mathematical fact that fifty percent of all doctors graduate in the bottom half of their class." ~Author Unknown

"If two wrongs don't make a right, try three." ~Author Unknown

 

[oldfieldguy]

"I don't know." It's a good answer.

Often it should be followed by "Should I be devoting time to find out?" Or "Should YOU be devoting time to find out?"

old field guy

 

[PSE]

It tends to be all the things that I do not know that hold my interest in a job as I try to find answers. "I don't know" is a nice unambiguous answer. I definitely agree with other posters indicating that it should be followed up with "I'll find out" or a similar statement. My work has expanded across numerous typical engineering boundaries so I find myself on occasion in unfamiliar territory that I am still responsible for. Thankfully where I work, I have good enough rapport with colleagues such that I can get good answers to the "I don't know" in a reasonably short time.

Like the sciences in general, engineering is likely to "expand" with more and more specialty niches. It is a result of having to delve further and further into the details. The trick will be to retain a "common" language with which to communicate technical information rather than specialized jargon only few could understand.

Regards,

 

[jeebusmn]

I'll happily look into something myself rather than be bamboozled with BS. No problems here if someone says "I don't know".

 

[MintJulep]

"I don't know." It's a good answer.

Often it should be followed by "Should I be devoting time to find out?" Or "Should YOU be devoting time to find out?"

I generally like this reply, however it only works if you are being asked questions that you don't know the answer too.

I find myself frequently in a mentoring role - either formally with junior employees within my company, or informally with both senior and junior engineers at clients.

I rarely have the opportunity to use OFG's reply. This is not reflective of the scope of my knowledge, but rather seems to be because I get get asked pretty basic questions most of the time.

I think this is indicative of the issue that desnov started this thread with. Too many engineers don't have a good understanding of some pretty fundamental stuff, nor do they have the skills or motivation to try working something out on their own.