I don't want to work overtime! 27

[warelephent]

hi all,

I'm in the process of finding a new job so I'm interviewing with some really interesting companies. I'm 23 years old and I'm trying to work in Raleigh, NC. Everything is going well so far and some of the smaller firms look like great opportunities to learn alot about structural engineering. There is only one problem with all of this: it seems to be industry standard that structural engineers work excessive overtime. These small firms mention that they expect 50 hrs/wk from me minimum.

I don't want to work more than 40 and I don't want the extra money. I may consider working at one of these firms anyway just because it seems so much better than some other civil jobs, but I really don't enjoy working that much and I've found that a couple of hours a day can really make a big difference with quality of life. I'm still deciding if this will cause me to turn down a job, but it seems that if I wanted to work ridiculous hours then I would go for a PhD. 50+ is just too much especially considering I'll be sitting in front of that great big computer screen for every one of those hours. I feel strongly about keeping it at 40, and I know if I agree to 50 then I could easily be looking at 60 once I start working there.

So this is the problem, and I'm sure that you-all know it even better than I do. The twist is that I havn't started working anywhere yet and so I'm still free to decide. My question is:

How outlandish would it be to try to negotiate 40 or maybe 45 hrs/wk as a condition of acceptance of an offer from a company that has mentioned that a typical workweek is 50+.

I don't care about the risk of losing the offer if there's a chance they might consider it. Also remember that its paid overtime that I'm turning down.

Thanks in advance for your advice!

-G

 

[swivel63]

whoa, LOL....remind me to never ever send my resume to those companies. we've had this discussion before in this forum i believe. if it's truly an issue, don't work for them. don't even try and negotiate.

 

[MadMango]

If you don't want to work, play the Lotto.

Everyone has to "pay their dues". Some people clean out the deep fryer, others are stuck putting cardboard boxes in the crusher. 10hrs of overtime is not that terrible, considering you will be employed in a career that you chose to pursue.

That being said, I'm a strong believer in the 40hr week. I hate people expecting me to arrive early and leave late to "set an example" or be a "team player". I manage my time fairly well, and can get my work done in the allotted 40hrs. I am also willing to work as much overtime as is required to get the job done. If a project is going to slip it won't be on my account. Having completed plenty of 36-48hr days during my career has helped me to learn to manage my time wisely.

You could try to negotiate, but remember you are one of many that will be applying for the same position. Your resistance to hard work (as preceived by your future employer) may mean the difference between which candidate gets extended an offer.

[green]"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."[/green]

Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[zdas04]

If you want to work a 40 hours week you better go to work for the government.

I've been asked several times at interviews how many hours a week the interviewee would be expected to work and I always reply "I tend to average 60 hours a week, and most of the staff is here when I get here and here when I leave". I've never hired anyone who thought that was excessive.

The job is the job and if you feel that the employeer is exploitive then you won't be happy. I've never worked for anyone who came out and said that I had to work overtime for free, but if I ever didn't get a project finished on time it would have had an impact on whether I was ever placed on the critical path again.

David

 

[COEngineeer]

As long as I meet my billable hour requirement and I go under budget, my boss is happy. To make the clients happy however, sometime I need to be sure my design is finish in time so occasionally I do have to work overtime. If you want 8-5 job, you shouldnt have done engineering.

 

[COEngineeer]

Oh yes, by the way, it is saturdary afternoon right now and I am at work trying to finish my project .

 

[metengr]

warelephent;
LOL, I really have a nice, cushy job for you, we hire clerks that work exactly 40 hours per week. It might require a pay cut, but you will only work 40 hours in an office environment.

I do admire your expectations. However, you really need to come to grips that working as a professional will require more than 40 hours per week. Once you establish yourself within an organization, you will begin to optimize your work load and your attitude will change. Some weeks you may work less than 40 hours, and other weeks you may work more than 40 hours.

 

[rbulsara]

There is nothing wrong with not willing to work overtime. Just tell the would be-employer upfront. If they really do not want you, you will know then.

 

[DonPE]

50 hours a week is quite a lot to ask for. However, at least you know beforehand that they require this and can adjust your salary request accordingly. Otherwise, you may find yourself working in the $20/hour range, not much better than some clerks.

 

[sms]

Move to France.....

In the US for any kind of engineering 50 hours a week is pretty normal.

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

 

[sms]

"I really don't enjoy working that much"

One aspect of success is enjoying what you do. If you don't want to work as an engineer, you need to find something else to do.




-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

 

[JStephen]

When looking at the salary, consider what it equates to if you include that extra time as time-and-a-half like a lot of other workers. Making $1500 a week works out to the equivalent of $37.50/ hr for 40 hours, $27.27/ hr for 50 hours, $21.42/ hr for 60 hours. What sounds good in total doesn't sound so good if you realize your auto mechanic could be making more than that by working your hours. Paying an average salary and expecting longer-than-average hours is just the equivalent of substandard pay in the first place.

Another factor that your employer won't care about, but that makes a big difference to you, is how long it takes you to get to work. If you have a 1-hour commute each way and then work 10+ hours a day plus a lunch hour, you're not going to be doing much besides working. But if you work things right, you could easily work 10 hours a day and have more free time than some other guy working 8 hours a day due to driving conditions.

 

[Comcokid]

CBS 60 Minutes program on April 2, 2006 said it all:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/31/60minutes/main1460246.shtml

"Americans work longer hours than nearly anyone in the developed world, even the Japanese."

 

[wjsd]

I got that BS about 50+ hours from a company in Raleigh area when I first came out of NCSU-Kimley-Horn and Associates. They called it "extra effort" and some such nonsense. Plus they want you attending lunch and learns, etc. etc. They tell you this story about how you will be like family. Your darn right you will be like family. You'll be living in your cubicle cubby. *cough*cough*sweatshop* Well, that job did not last long. It IS about quality of life. Don't listen to crusty old timers who tell you they work 15 hour days yada yada yada. I saw before and after pictures of guys that looked like little boys when they entered KHA and looked like old men after 10 years or less. But, Hey, if you want to be VP of engineering in 10 years, go for it! The computer screens and fluorescent lights and grumpy old men will suck the life from you. lol. That being said, structural engineering can be a rewarding, fulfilling career. I would pick your companies really carefully. The smaller the company the more likely they are a sweatshop. Me, I would rather make less and be happy, than make more and die young before I can spend my pension. I work when i am at the office unlike a lot of these guys who roam around chit chatting. Work smarter, not longer. This could be a little bit of a rant, but darn if it doesn't feel good.

 

[tbwttihs]

I don't have any experience of the American engineering/work culture (except by word of mouth from American colleagues) but 50 hr/wk seems excessive for an entry level position.

Of course there will be times when workload dictates I have to work 50+ hours a week, but it shouldn't be the norm. Work to live, don't live to work etc. Do you *need* the new SUV/bigger house/huge TV or do you *need* to spend some quality time with your wife/husband/kid/whatever... I guess that's a decision which most guys ultimately make (though not always consicously).


COEngineeer,

Maybe less time spent on EngTips would mean less Saturday afternoons in the office!!

(...said with tongue firmly in cheek, I hasten to add!)

 

[COEngineeer]

I know, I cant help it!!! I guess if your boss cant appreciate your work if you only put 40 hrs, then I think you should find another job. I work overtime only to please the clients so I can get the design on time.

Yes, I think american work culture is a little harsh (40hrs a week w/ only 10 days of vacation a year average). But I come from south east asia where people work Monday to Saturday!

 

[UcfSE]

If you want to be an engineer you will have to pay your dues like everyone else. Be glad you have an opportunity to get paid for it. Most companies will not pay an engineer overtime. They really like to take advantage of you and work you 60 hours per week for 40-hour pay and laugh all the way to the bank, and have the gall to expect it of you.

 

[bridgebuster]

warelephent,

When I was your age I wasn't interested in OT either. I just got out of school; I wanted to enjoy things a bit. Later on, I didn't mind OT; the extra money cames in handy. Now I'm pushing 50, I hate OT again because I don't get paid for it, no bonus, no nothing. I have to have at least 80% utilization but in reality if it isn't closer to 100% my boss takes a fit. As a result proposals, management reports, employee assessments, etc, get done on my time.

I don't see the purpose of mandatory OT just for the sake of working OT. If the workload requires it for a period of time that's one thing. Otherwise, you just burn yourself out and someone ends up paying more for a job. My employer has an office in Raleigh, hopefully they're not one of the firms insisting on 50+ hours. At least in my office we don't insist on that.

 

[lostsailor]

Warelephant,
I find that all of the replies to your original post merit serious consideration. They also seem to directly mirror my experience in the employment arena ( imagine that ).
I am at the point in my career where I work only if I am being directly compensated ( salary plus overtime based on billable hours in excess of 40/week ) or if I see other possible future benefits to myself for the effort put in.
Your knowledge and expertise are your product and you should be duly compensated for them. What you need to do is balance any possible employers requirements with your own and strive towards tipping the scales in your favor. Early on this may very well require putting in time for which you may not be compensated. Carefully keep track of your output versus hours put in and see how that compares to those on your level and make sure your employer knows that as well ( assuming you are doing well ). If things aren't going to your liking, discuss during your evaluation and move on if you can't reconcile things to your liking. Be sure to have a definitive goal/professenial scenario in mind at all times and strive to attain it. That being said I am not an advocate of implicit, uncompensated overtime. I feel that if someone is extracting benefit from your efforts then you should as well. In practice this can be kind of tricky and needs to be handled tactfully. Good luck in your endeavors.
Regards,
RLS
p.s. ask yourself regularly whether your are living to work
or working to live and maintain a sensible balance
between the two

 

[Twoballcane]

warelehent,

Im not in civil, but in my limited vision of what you guys do on a daily basis is that you travel oftan from the work site to office and vice versa. My guess is that you spend a good part of your day in transit. And, then once you get down to a desk or computer, your close the 40hr mark of the week so you need ot to finish your job. I guess im asking if this is a typical situaion?

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."