I don't want to work overtime! 27

[warelephent]

hi all,

I'm in the process of finding a new job so I'm interviewing with some really interesting companies. I'm 23 years old and I'm trying to work in Raleigh, NC. Everything is going well so far and some of the smaller firms look like great opportunities to learn alot about structural engineering. There is only one problem with all of this: it seems to be industry standard that structural engineers work excessive overtime. These small firms mention that they expect 50 hrs/wk from me minimum.

I don't want to work more than 40 and I don't want the extra money. I may consider working at one of these firms anyway just because it seems so much better than some other civil jobs, but I really don't enjoy working that much and I've found that a couple of hours a day can really make a big difference with quality of life. I'm still deciding if this will cause me to turn down a job, but it seems that if I wanted to work ridiculous hours then I would go for a PhD. 50+ is just too much especially considering I'll be sitting in front of that great big computer screen for every one of those hours. I feel strongly about keeping it at 40, and I know if I agree to 50 then I could easily be looking at 60 once I start working there.

So this is the problem, and I'm sure that you-all know it even better than I do. The twist is that I havn't started working anywhere yet and so I'm still free to decide. My question is:

How outlandish would it be to try to negotiate 40 or maybe 45 hrs/wk as a condition of acceptance of an offer from a company that has mentioned that a typical workweek is 50+.

I don't care about the risk of losing the offer if there's a chance they might consider it. Also remember that its paid overtime that I'm turning down.

Thanks in advance for your advice!

-G

 

[MRM]

I believe that these folks who "work" 50 to 60 hours a week would be surprised at how much time they waste in any given day. Many a morning I hear my associates in offices down the hall talk about hunting, fishing, football, or sometimes really nothing at all for 30 to 45 minutes to start off. This happens throughout the day too. I guess I have a gift to be able to get down to work when I'm at work even though I enjoy all of those things.

You'd amaze yourself at how much can be accomplished in 40 hours. That's a tremendous amount of time. Efficiency is the key.

 

[DaveVikingPE]

Overtime? You expect to get paid for that? Who signs in these days? Aren't the mighty engineers "exempt" employees?

You work until it gets done - then come back in the morning and do it again!

Of course, if you follow what MRM says (and it is true) you'll get an amazing amount of work done in 40 hours.

Things to learn: 1. Web-surfing is a time vampire, drive a stake through its heart. 2. There is nothing wrong with telling anyone that you have to get back to work. 3. Don't just learn to look busy, actually be busy.

These are good: "lunch and learns" as long as the boss picks up the lunch.

 

[BJC]

Sounds like a lot of people here need to put the movie "Office Space" on their birthday/christams wish list.
It can make you feel good to work 50 hrs a week and then go out on a job site and talk to an electrican who makes as much as an engineer. He more than likely gets better bennies, can retire at 55 and gets paid every second he's on the job.
Contratractors don't seem to go broke any more than consulting engineers and they pay people for 100 % of their hours. Are consulting firms run by dummies or are the owners just greedy?
IF I had know better when I started school I may have been an electrican. The economic analysis puts you ahead in the same time frame it takes to graduate from Engr school. Four years of cash comming in ( even at apprintice rates) vs four years of cash going out in college.
Most electricans I know live just as well or better than the engineers I know.
You can tell me that there dummer and don't do nobel intellectual work, but the ones that worked yesterday around here made about $400.

 

[Twoballcane]

BJC,

I beg to differ. On avarge Electricans make way less than Electrical Engineers (

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos206.htm).

Where as (in 2004) Electricans made about $20/hr ($42K/year) and the Electrical Engineer made $72k/year (

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm#earnings).

That is $30k worth of OT the electrican has to make to catch up to a 40hr/ week Electrical Engineer.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[sms]

Not to mention 10 hours a day cramped in a breaker box stripping, pulling, and snipping wire, on a construction site which is wicked hot in the summer or deathly cold in the winter.

Been there, done that, I'll stick with engineering....

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

 

[Twoballcane]

I here you sms. My first job our of college I was a field engineer (glorified tech). I had to do installs of equipment from outside the building to the inside. You know your job is starting to suck when you have to tap the eletrical box or any box in the basement to scare out the rats and bugs and then stick your hand in it. And then, for OT you do more of it. When I got my real engineernig job it was nice to come to an office sitdown with a cup of coffee and do work.

Today im doing some ot (sunday). I have a cup of coffee, 80's tunes off the net, and software cranking out some good analysis...sure beats rapping eltrical boxes.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[bjb]

A good balance between home and the office is essential. I have worked with several who have lost marriages because by their own admission they worked too much.

If you don't have your own family yet (wife & children) it might be a good idea to work for one of these firms for a few years because you will learn alot. However, firms that operate like sweat shops often have a high turnover because their employees get burned out.

I just left an employer because I was consistently working 7 days a week, often until 1 or 2 am. All of this was of course uncompensated. I found another employer who has more reasonable requirements. I choose to work about 50 hours because it gives me a little breathing room at work. I also chose to get in early so I beat the traffic and so I can leave early enough to get home and be with my family for dinner.

Unfortunatley, putting in overtime comes with the territory of being a consulting engineer. Not all firms require a minimum of 50 hours, if you look around some more you'll probably find one that has a work week you can live with. Just don't expect that at crunch time you can strictly stick to a 40 hour week. If you do and others have to pick up your slack you will be resented and may not last long. Good luck

 

[lewtam]

Reasons to work 50hrs+ a week:
1. I am paid a buttload of money to do it.
2. I am gaining valuable experience or am fast tracking my career so I can eventually be put in the position to receive a buttload of money.
3. I just plain love doing what the job entails.

If there isn't one or more of the above I just plain won't do it. Life is too short.



LewTam Inc.
Petrophysicist, Leading Hand, Natural Horseman, Prickle Farmer, Crack Shot, Venerable Yogi.

 

[BJC]

Twoballcane
Good statistics but they are just that. They include all those "electricans" running romex in Mississippi etc. Check the ones doing construction in your area.
I assumed anyone serious about being an electrican would go the full apprenticeship route and get into a constuction local IBEW. I know several that have made a $100K. a year. Thats about 500 hrs a year OT. The only OT they donate is to Habitat for Humanity.

Warelephant
If you don't want to work OT you could consider working as a contractor. Get you pimp to get you time and half for OT. At least when you work OT you get time and half and the "real employees" will get nothing.

 

[ckenny]

Warelephant,

You may as well get use to working, it's never going to end. My son works a lot of hours and I encurage that. He complained to me that his company assigned him a car that looks like an old person would drive. Had to remind him that if he worked six to seven days and nights a week, he may be able to drive a Ferrari and look old, like I do.

 

[epoisses]

@sms

"Move to France.....

In the US for any kind of engineering 50 hours a week is pretty normal."

Bad news for you sms...
French engineers voluntarily work overtime as well. Maybe not all of them work 50 hours (I don't) but we stick around at least an hour longer than the clerks.
It's all about finding the right balance between having a good family life and having the feeling, at the end of the day, of having done a proper and thorough job. And if that involves occasionnally staying late to work efficiently while the office is quiet and the phone has shut up, then so be it (my wife at least doesn't mind).
On the other hand I expect my company to be flexible as well and let me step in half an hour later or leave a bit earlier if absolutely necessary (garage, doctor, that kind of stuff) and fortunately they are.

 

[aardvarkdw]

For my first year with the company I work for, I worked consistantly 45-55hr weeks. I was getting paid hourly and did get compensated for overtime but my hourly rate was nothing to write home about. Now I am salary and am only required to work 40hrs/week, but I still put in the overtime (uncompensated) if I need to. The point is, for the first year I was proving that I could kick butt and take names every hour that I was working. I did 50hrs worth of work when I worked that many hours. Now my boss doesn't care if I work only 40hrs because she knows I will get everything done on time, and if I need to come in early or late or even take a day off and come in on the weekend instead it isn't a problem for them.

Get your foot in the door, negotiate for 45hrs/week if that would make you happy, but work you butt off for a while and prove yourself. Then you can set your own schedule.

David

 

[kchayfie]

I think its fine to be upfront and make it clear that you're not willing to work regular overtime as long as you accept the consequences that they might not offer you the job. I think that you should be prepared to work occasional overtime if there is a good reason for them to ask you to do it and you haven't got specific plans for that week - if it worked out the other way round and the workload slackened off for a couple of weeks, you'd still be expecting to get paid for 40 hours even if there wasn't enough there to keep you busy. And if slack period carried on, you'd be facing lay-offs and so by the same token if the reason for doing the overtime doesn't go away, you don't have to carry on working long hours.

 

[Jabberwocky]

I'm coming from the same place as you, OP. 9-5 is a myth because you are gone from the house at least 8-6 even on a "40 hour" workweek. It is a bad thing and Americans work TOO MANY hours overall.

However, as it has been said above, you are competing against other people for these jobs. If any one of them is willing to put in the extra hours, how can you possibly compete with that? At your (our) age what position are you negotiating from that will put this position on your terms? If you can do it then by all means go for it but I don't see what you (or anybody our age) has to offer that will make up for %25 more hours on the clock.

Finally, these are PAID overtime hours, like time and a half?! That's pretty rare in my (limited) experience, although I'm not structural...

 

[macmet]

Perhaps you can negotiate to get flex time? Work extra hours week and get additional days off another time. I know some companies offer that up front, sadly not mine.


Cheers.

 

[eric1037]

Come and work in Michigan. Assuming you can actually get a job, you will probably only work 32 hours a week. Of course, you only get paid 32 hours a week.

 

[JRESE]

Warelephant:

If a prospective employer stated to me that 50+ hrs. per week was expected, I would try to find out more about why that was the case. Is this a short term situation because of a specific project? If so, it seems likely that a new employee would be assigned to that project (one that is apparently in trouble already).

If this is a long term situation, why is that? Poor management, local supply vs. demand of engineers, shortage of qualified employees, recent defections of good employees, just plain greed of firm management, etc. are all possible reasons. It would seem important to find out why. If there is a shortage of qualified employees, then you should ask for more money. If it a problem of poor management, maybe you should pass. If it is local supply vs. demand, then look in another locale.

One other thing for a young engineer to consider here. Before accepting a job, I would certainly want to know what these smaller firms are doing about professional and leadership development. After all, if you are going to spend 50+ hours per week on them, what are they going to do, formally, in that 50 hours to invest in you, to make you a better engineer, and a better leader. I suggest that workin’ ain’t necessarily learnin’. Further, I suggest that in an environment where you are expected to work 50+, your development will receive far less consideration than in a 40-45 hr environment. In your original post, you mentioned that these smaller firms seem to “look like great opportunities to learn a lot about structural engineering.” Maybe these smaller firms are looking at you and saying that you look like a great opportunity to put a guy in a cubicle for 50 hours a week, bill him out at full rate, and not have to invest a thing in him.

 

[UcfSE]

JRESE makes a very good point. Listen to his wisdom, grasshopper.

 

[josephv]

Hi Warelephant,

JRESE makes an excellent point, "If a prospective employer stated to me that 50+ hrs. per week was expected, I would try to find out more about why that was the case."

I don't have much to add, JRESE explains his point very well. It's a great idea to think to understand the business of the companies that you are applying to.

Good luck,

Joseph

 

[josephv]

sorry typo

It's a great idea, to think like a businessman i.e. understand the business of the companies that you are applying to.