I thought I had a small, easy job f

[vicbee]

I thought I had a small, easy job for a CAD shop... maybe not. I previously posted a similar question here and got good feedback (thanks!) but after talking with a couple "design/CAD" shops they don't seem to be able to do all that I need so I will ask again for more expertise on this:

I would like to make an armchair with a metal frame (and additional materials). I have a good idea as to what I want the frame to look like, and can do a very basic sketch of it.
But, before making the decision on whether to use aluminum or stainless steel and before verifying with foundries which is the least expensive way to make short series of it (casting or forging) I was hoping a CAD/engineering shop could work with me on validating my design's structural soundness (so that it doesn't break and I don't get sued...) and give me the engineering feedback I need to make an informed decision before they CAD the frame for manufacturing.
It's a very simple design although I admit it will need some back and forth discussion affected by manufacturing cost variables. But so far I am either quoted for "design" work that I don't want, or asked to send a complete and detailed lay out (which I don't have the skills to do) so that all they would do is CAD it, with no validations...
Could it just be that I am not willing to pay thousands of $$ for what I need?
This may sound naive, and this is all new to me, but I don't want to waste another shop's time or mine arguing for days over what can or cannot be done...
Do I need to take my idea to a structural and materials engineer to validate the frame's design and alloy, then get someone to sketch it properly, then get a shop to CAD it for manufacturing, then take it to a Photoshop "artist" to do the visual marketing finishing??... Thanks for your feedback!

 

[stressriser]

"Do I need to take my idea to a structural and materials engineer to validate the frame's design and alloy, then get someone to sketch it properly, then get a shop to CAD it for manufacturing, then take it to a Photoshop "artist" to do the visual marketing finishing??... Thanks for your feedback!"



Uh, yes...... Welcome to the world of business... did you expect to develop and market your idea for free?

 

[MadMango]

I say no. If you find the proper design consultant, they should be able to offer you all the services you have listed in one shot. But Stressriser is correct, it will cost you, and I'm guessing close to 40-60 hours of work @ $60USD an hour. "The attempt and not the deed confounds us."

 

[stressriser]

Our design consultant charges $175/hour...And Mango is correct, you should be able to get all the design support in one house.

 

[Rich2001]

With limits being placed on Professional Engineers by their liability Insurance providers, te cost of developing a product for sale to the public is quite high.

Last project of this type that I worked on, that include; CAD drafting, engineering analysis, fabricating two models/prototypes and artwork for marketing cost about $45000.

(BTW professional liability insurance in my area is approximately $6000/yr.and that is if you are not developing products to be sold to the public.)

 

[MadMango]

We took advantage of the weak Canadian dollar, and hired a design consultant from Montreal. He was only charging us $45USD per hour. I had thought that $60USD would be the average, but I can see how this might be below the average. "The attempt and not the deed confounds us."

 

[stressriser]

Hmmmm... I can design that chair in 35 Hours!

 

[dvd]

You might want to think about contacting a custom fabricator in your area who has an engineering department. They can produce your drawings and advise you on practical material selection and fabrication techniques. If you don't want design work performed you must have applied some basic stress analysis to your design, so overbuild it a little. It's a chair not an airplane, who cares if it weighs two pounds more? Build the prototype and overload it, if it breaks then you can improve on your design. Also, think about welding and using tubing and/or sheet metal. If you get orders for thousands or more of your chair then you can think about how to save money with other manufacturing techniques.

 

[vicbee]

Thank you all for your feedback. I understand now why there isn't much design creativity out there for furniture... at $45K a design and sample, it would take selling a whol'lotta chairs to make a buck!

 

[dvd]

There's plenty of design creativity out there. You sound as if you're too worried about getting everything perfect on paper before you even know if there is any interest in your product. Take your sketches to a fabricator and see what they can do for your prototype. If you can't afford that, talk to the metal shop instructor at your local high school. There have been chairs made for thousands of years, long before all the high-tech computer design stuff. If it's that great of an idea you can get all of the flashy computer work done with your profits after you've sold a few. Also, be sure to protect your rights to invention and patents with whomever you deal with by keeping dated documentation.

 

[gbent]

So you want to make a chair. So what. Where and how are you going to market it? What is special about it? If it is mass market, can you compete with China? If it is about style or image, the sky is the limit on price.

Look at many of the stylish clothing manufactures. From bulk manufactured product to retail price, the mark-up is over 1000%. The brand and image must be defended with huge advertising budgets, however.

Before you spend a great deal of time and money on a final design, do a business plan on your chair venture. It can be the best chair in the world, but if you can't convince others to buy them, your venture is dead. I know this is often foreign to engineers, but the world is full of good ideas that can't make it to market. (The converse is also true, there is a lot of junk that is marketed very well).

I agree with dvd about protecting your idea. If you have a unique design that is desirable, there will be knockoffs on the market within 3 months. And remember, a patent is simply a license to sue. If you have a patent with any value, it will have to be defended in court.

 

[vicbee]

Thanks for your insight dvd and gbent. It would be best to keep the discussion to engineering issues as I am fairly familiar with marketing and development aspects of my project. I am based in Hong Kong so, believe me, I know about Chinese know-how.
I've been asking quite a few questions on this board and have received great feedback from a number of people on elements I was not familiar with and I can't thank you enough for that.
My point was a general one, a feedback from a non engineer disappointed by the narrow focus and exhorbitant fees charged by CAD/engineering/design shops. To make a positive feedback, I would venture to say that there's a large untapped market of micro and small businesses looking for shops willing to expand the scope of their services and to accept creative (and legal!) deferred payment methods to save a business' precious cash flow. Bla, bla, bla....
Sorry, didn't mean to start a big argument!

 

[Estassoc]

Vicbee,

Have you tried your neighbors in Asia. There are a lot of competent engineering design/manufacturing companies that handles a lot more complicated design than what you have.
Maybe if you can find a company out there and sell them your idea you can arrange for a joint venture with them.
You handle the marketing side while your partner handle the engineering/manufacturing side. There's a lot of aspiring
enterpreneurs in that region who might be interested in your brilliant idea.

Good luck in your search.