Illinois SE Application Deferral

[WiSEiwish]

This one is for the non-Illinois based SEs who have applied for the Illinois SE license less than 8 years after graduating college with a BSE degree.

Has anyone ever been deferred because of issues with their transcript? I recently was deferred, although am protesting, because my transcript did not have enough structural design courses. I was 8 credit hours short. This surprised me because I had attended a major midwestern (Big Ten) public school that was ABET accredited. The last thing I expected to be an issue was my transcript.

In looking at the requirements for my degree (BSE in Civil Engineering) everything is pretty much set in stone save 3 technical electives (9 credit hours) where I have a choice. I spent 6 of the 9 hours on structural engineering courses and 3 on a water resources course. If I had a redo I would take all 9 in structural, but that is beside the point. Given the fact that I was apparently 8 hours short to meet Illinois standards the extra 3 hours wouldn't have helped.

Given the very restrictive course choices, it would really be impossible to become an SE in Illinois without taking some post-graduate courses. I was unaware of any MS requirements for Illinois. If my protest works then all is well and good, but if it doesn't I'm left with the option of taking 8 semester hours of structural design courses (something I'm not opposed to but don't have the time and money for) or work another 18 months to get to 8 years of experience.

Any empathy out there? Has anyone else found themselves in a similar situation?

 

[Archie264]

TME,

You might want to read Milton Friedman's full argument before saying that though I'll concede that it's a shocking statement to make. My (unfairly-brief) distillation of it, though, is that it would lead to better practice and more stringent requirements...the insurance companies and tort lawyers would see to that.

 

[BS2]

I agree with PE2012 and KootK. I have seen several engineers with civil degrees with very little structural design knowledge. The lateral torsional buckling example that KootK mentioned is all too familiar.

@PE2012 - To answer your question about what degrees meet this education requirement, my undergrad degree is in architectural engineering with a structural emphasis. I had no problems meeting the requirements and getting my license in Illinois. I took steel design, wood design, concrete design, a high seismic course, and masonry to name a few. The civil students were in some of my other classes and on the whole, they were not as capable at structural design. I am not saying Illinois has a perfect policy on this, but it seems that they have reacted to the general situation as I have described above.

 

[Archie264]

PE2012,

Actually, Friedman's position was that it is a modern version of the medieval trade guilds, in other words, an artificial barrier to entry to preserve a monopoly. This is more adequately put forth in his book, not in that short video, of course.

As one quick piece of anecdotal evidence in support of his position Friedman pointed out how, in the years leading up to WWII when there was a large influx of displaced European doctors into the US the overall number of practicing doctors nevertheless remained virtually unchanged. The licensing body, the American Medical Association, saw to that: they changed the rules to ensure it.

Not unlike what the Illinois licensing board has done to Michigan grads, from the sound of it. What'd y'all do? Beat 'em in football, or something?

 

[WiSEiwish]

I had no trouble in Ohio, and I can't imagine that the amount of disdain for Michigan grads would be any higher than it is there!

 

[hawkaz]

There was an eye-opening discussion on another forum (sorry- I can't find it) that discussed current classes being taken vs. what they were 20-30 years ago. It seems that the classes we took at the BS level back then are now being taken at the MS level instead. Might explain some of Illinois issues.

 

[WiSEiwish]

hawkaz,

That is a huge problem in my eyes and one that is creating a push for requiring a Masters. Unfortunately I think the solution is in the wrong place. The push should be to reform undergraduate curriculum rather than require more years of school. However, the education industry will make more money if more school is required.

Maybe it is because I have a degree in Civil Engineering and practice Structural Engineering that I think that it is a bigger issue in my field, but I do think that the problem is magnified within the Civil Engineering curriculum. I know all the fields are related, but the difference between designing a building structure and designing a storm-water management system is significant, but they are both "Civil Engineering" and thus they serve to dilute a student's education by adding courses that may not be relevant enough to be worthwhile.

Just going off of the technical areas listed in my former school's curriculum there are following for civil engineering: Construction, Structural, Materials, Geotechnical, Hydraulics/Hydrology, Environmental, and Transportation. How can that all fit into a meaningful undergraduate degree?

 

[mike20793]

I have seen that many firms in my area, including my own, will not hire structural design engineers without a Masters degree, pretty much regardless of experience. There is a push towards making a Masters degree a prerequisite for the SE license in my state (it likely won't happen anytime soon); they talked about it all the time when I was in grad school. That being said, without my graduate curriculum, I would have missed the more relevant structural design courses (structural dynamics, post-tension design, diaphragm design etc.). As hours have been forced to be cut back out of Bachelor's programs, "non-essential" courses have been forced to move to electives or have been dropped completely; so there is some validity to what hawkaz said about degrees from today not equaling degrees from 30 years ago.

 

[Surya77]

SE requirements in IL are horrible,

That is the reason I am planning to take my SE in TX. Even thought it is not called "SE" right now, it will be soon reconized as SE.

Its the same 16 hr SE exam thou

 

[mike20793]

Some consider them good requirements because you can get SE's in most other states with an SE in Illinois.

I've been looking at a lot of other firm's drawings in the past couple months and I have been shocked at some of the designs going out with seals. Lateral design is typically lacking(especially in wood buildings) and that's mostly what I was taught in graduate school. I am okay with more stringent requirements, but I don't fall into the case of the OP so its easy to be biased.

 

[WiSEiwish]

Unfortunately I'm in a state that doesn't recognize the SE license. I specifically need it for Illinois, so right now I'm stuck waiting and do not have the SE title. I may apply to a state that will accept my transcript so I can at least call myself an SE.

 

[WiSEiwish]

Officially deferred.

 

[WARose]

I tell you something interesting that happened a few years back. A guy I use to work with got his SE in Illinois. But a few years later (i.e. about the time they changed the education requirements), he disappeared from their rolls. I'm not sure if they had a grandfather clause in there to protect him or not but it made me wonder. He is still a PE in other states so I'm pretty sure it wasn't any kind of disciplinary action.....and if he didn’t renew, it probably would just be listed as inactive.

 

[Archie264]

Come on, folks, Chicago's gotta do something to keep those New York engineers out of their turf. It would be unfair otherwise, seeing how those New Yawkers have so many skyscrapers to practice on. Ditto the Washington State engineers using their third exam to separate themselves out from all those CalTrans-educated engineers a couple of states away. Why it's almost as if some people have no sense of charity whatsoever!

The banks in the US used to be state-regulated as well, and for the same reason.