Importance of a CoOp / Advice requested

[pdmorris]

I have a B.S. in Physics and am halfway through an M.S. in Mechanical Engineering. My grades are good and I've conducted a fair amount of research as a student, but I've never participated in a CoOp or internship. In talking to other students, I've come to the conclusion that my lack of "real world" experience will place me at a significant disadvantage when I begin applying for work. So I'm left with the following dilemma: is a CoOp so important that I should rearrange my schedule and greatly inconvenience myself and my thesis advisor to obtain one, or should I just accept that it would be too difficult at this stage and accept that I may have to look a little harder for my first job?

Here's a little more detail. As I said, I'm halfway through my Master's program. I have the fall and spring semesters remaining, during which I'm scheduled to take two and one classes, respectively. I am currently supported as a teacher's aide (not a research assistant) and will probably continue to be for the rest of my program. While I'm still a long way from having completed my thesis, I'd say that I've made more progress toward that end than most students at this point. My thesis advisor is a nice guy, but I'm sure he'd be unhappy to lose me for a semester.

If I were to take on a CoOp, I would probably do so during the spring semester, hoping to have my thesis nearly completed by the end of fall. That would give my advisor a chance to prepare for my departure and would not conflict with any conferences (I'm scheduled to present at two in fall). I'd probably still take a class in spring (I don't know how'd I'd finish my thesis in fall with three classes), and just make sure either the CoOp was local or the class was a distance education class. If I had to take a little time in summer to finish up the thesis, that would probably be okay.

I'd really appreciate the advice of some of the forum members.

 

[IRstuff]

It really depends on where you're going to look for a job and what that specific position is.

My personal view is that given the MS, having real-world experience is almost a must, just to demonstrate a certain level of balance between theoretical and practical.

Ideally, your work experience would be linked to your thesis in some way.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[GregLocock]

BS in Physics+MSc in Mech Eng is already a bit light-on in breadth for real engineering, so I'd say you really do need to get an internship under your belt.


Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[metengr]

When I was pursuing my undergraduate degree CoOP Engineering was something that was a relatively new concept (not promoted or advertised). I decided to delay my graduation by 1 year. It was well worth the time. I was fortunate in that my CoOp advisor placed me at a Research and Development Technical Center as a technician.

I received valuable expierence that could not be gained by graduating sooner rather than later. Coming back to the university in my senior year was so much easier because of increased maturity from working and seeing graduation in a different perspective; the CoOp expierence solidified my decision to become a metallurgist (no joke). In fact, one of my student friends had absolutely no clue as to what engineers (let alone Metallurgical Engineers) did in the real world. I truly believe if he had enrolled in CoOp he probably would have changed majors.


Anyway, I was offered a job as a Production Metallurgist in one of their (the CoOp place of employment) subsidiaries upon graduation. Since I did not want to relocate, I declined the job offer. However, I decided to go full time to graduate school and obtain my MS in Metallurgical Engineering because there were so few jobs (early 1980's recession). Another 1 year delay. However, the salary I started out having the MSME was significant enough that I did just fine over time. My point is the money I made from CoOp Engineering along with the work/personnel experience provided a significant edge against other graduates with absolutely no relevant work expierence. I would do it again.

In fact, with all things being equal between two candidates, I would give the edge to the student that delayed graduation to obtain the CoOp work experience (provided it was relevant expierence).

 

[pdmorris]

IRstuff: That's a great suggestion. I will look for a CoOp that ties into my research. That might also help make the idea more palatable to my advisor.

Greg: That was my thinking, as well, regarding my Physics degree. The problem is probably compounded by the fact that I'm in the mechatronics concentration and a number of my Master's classes deal with electronics and programming.

metengr: I really appreciate the story. I, too, find myself uncomfortably ignorant regarding "what an engineer does." Being that my CoOp would take place during my final semester, I may not be in a position to apply what I learn to my classes like you did. At the very least, however, the experience should help inform me when I begin looking at jobs.

Thank you all for your responses. How nice that they all reach a similar conclusion: find a CoOp. I'll continue to check this thread for the next couple of days in case someone wants to present a conflicting point of view. Otherwise, I'll probably approach my advisor at the start of next week to break the news.

One more question: would a part-time CoOp be at all worth considering?

 

[metengr]

One more question: would a part-time CoOp be at all worth considering?

I would say it is a part time job not a part time CoOp. The program I enrolled in required full time work with credit given toward graduation. After a semester of work you needed to meet one time with your advisor and other CoOp students the following semester to down load and discuss expierence to obtain the credit hour. A part time job is what it is.

 

[zcp]

A part time job at a local plant sounds like your best option. Especially spring and summer. Some of your profs or the department head may have some contacts. I co-op'ed at a mfg plant that would bring on seniors and grad students part time to work on various projects for the mfg line. No delays to graduating, some experience, and some extra $ traded for time and sleep. Not a bad deal. Even if you end up working 'on the line', experience is experience.

ZCP

http://www.phoenix-engineer.com

 

[Twoballcane]

Co-op or even internships are more than just experience, but networking, which this can be an important part of this endeavor. As some posters indicated here that they got offers right after graduation with the people they co-op with. Also, if the grad wants to work with another company, the grad has references with some real substance behined it. You have to remember, once you get out into the real world, you will be competing against all of these people with contacts. The phrase "its not what you know, its who you know" is so true when you go job hunting.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[kchayfie]

How easy will it be to get the co op placement? If its there for the taking it'll be worth doing but if finding somewhere to get the experience is going to take almost as much effort as finding the first job, you might as well finish the course and then start looking for work. It sounds like you are prepared for the extra effort thats going to be required at that stage anyway.

 

[Twoballcane]

Co-op / internship is easyer than finding a real engineering job. I would say in most colleges, there is a departemnt dedicated to getting their students coop / internship jobs. For the employer, it is much cheaper to hire a coop than a college grad.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[pdmorris]

metengr: At my university, we have both undergraduate and graduate CoOp programs. In the undergraduate program, the student typically works three semesters for a company (one on, one off), receives class credit, and delays graduation for about a year. In the graduate program, the student works only one semester, receives no credit (as far as I know), and may not need to delay graduation at all. Obviously, the two programs require different levels of commitment and provide different benefits, but they're both referred to as "CoOp." Occasionally graduate students find part-tme positions, and this is still referred to as "a CoOp," but you're right in that it's essentially a one-semester, part-time job.

ZCP: Doing this part time would certainly make for the most convenient solution, and I'd still benefit greatly from the experience. My concern is that, when applying for jobs, I'd still pale in comparison to a student who had worked full time.

Tobalcane: I'll keep that in mind and look for a position that's connected to a company/industry in which I'd like to work. I think the fact that my CoOp would occcur during my final semester means that transitioning me to a job would be all the more convenient for a potential employer.

kchayfie: We have a good CoOp program at my university and my grades are good, so I'm under the impression that finding placement won't be prohibitively difficult. You're right that I'd gain little if all I was doing was starting the job search a semester earlier.

Thanks again for the responses, everybody. I feel a lot better making this decision now than I did when I first posted here.

 

[IRstuff]

I think that a part-time job during the school term and full-time during the summer can work great. My highest offer out of college came from my part-time employer, being a known quantity to them made it easy for them to give a competitive offer.

In general, I think even the part-time work will enhance your standing particularly if it's related to your thesis work.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[TStaples]

As a graduate of GMI (now Kettering U.), which is a 100% co-op educational institution, I am a firm believer in co-op education. It would have been better to get some work time in earlier in your educational path, but it would still be of benefit. As a hiring manager, I won't go near a newly minted graduate, regardless of degree. I want to see some work experience, and the best way to get started is co-op.

There is some good information buried within this thread that you can also read.

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=172105

-Tony Staples

http://www.tscombustion.com

 

[UDP10]

I disagree with most on this thread. I think the Co-op education is valuable, but not a necessity. In fact, unless you are fortunate enough to Co-op with a company or in a specific job description you discover you want to make a career of, the experience gained is not that much better than you'll get at school.
The real benefit of the Co-op program, in my opinion, is to get exposed to different aspects of engineering. As a ME, do you want to work in production? product design? construction consulting? aeordynamics? vibration?..... Engineering is so diverse and (at least my field - construction consulting) so experience based, it's rare that you run across a co-op that has relevant experience that sets him/her apart. And the truth is, my experience in reading co-op reviews and doing interviews is that most of "work" co-ops do is mind-numbing, tedius BS work that their engineering supervisors don't want to do.
My advise is don't do a co-op just to put it on the resume. Play your strengths. Smart, work hard, fast learner, detailed, enthusiastic, etc. Co-op or no, you're starting at the bottom and working your way up.

 

[IRstuff]

Obviously, there's a distinction about what is a "necessity." Hypothetically, anyone with a BS or MS has the qualifications for an entry-level job.

But, all else being equal, what would sway your potential employer? If you're the guy with coop experience and the other isn't, who's more likely to get hired?

It used to be that getting 1400 on the SAT and passing a couple of AP exams was good enough to get into any college. Now, you need IB and a minimum of 4 AP exams, in addition to a 4.0 GPA. There was a link to a story that Princeton rejected hundreds of applicants with ONLY a 4.0 GPA.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[KENAT]

So just to give the other side. I didn't do any kind of internship or placement. None of my various summer or part time jobs were engineering related.

I still managed to get a job.



KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[UDP10]

I'm not saying a co-op doesn't look good, I'm sure it does to most companies. I'm saying it's not as helpful to your development as an engineer as it's made out to be. If you were a freshman, I would tell you to absolutely co-op. You're not. I would not rearrange your life to add a note on your resume that may or may not help or hurt your chances at a job.
Some would say if you had an MS and the competitor only had a BS, you would have an advantage. It's kind of a crap shoot. One thing that has also changed with the elevated SAT scores and impressive resumes - a sense of entitlement. Kids now want to start at the top, don't want to pay their dues. Look like you want to work your A$$ off. You'll find something without too many problems. And move to the midwest - engineer shortage right now.

 

[Ashereng]

I think the value of a co-op when it comes to getting that first job is dependent on the person doing the hiring. If they had a co-op education, and feel that it was valuable, then they would look for co-ops to hire. If they had a co-op education, and felt that it was not particularly useful, then a co-op educaton probably wouldn't help much.

I have been at plants where the co-op/intern/summer student had the following jobs:
1) go around and get temperature reading via hand held thermometer, of a list of equipment/pipes on a clip board
2) cound fibres in a lab
3) re-design a consumer product packaging line
4) drive a forklift
6) hold a traffic sign

You get the idea.

Personally, I think a co-op couldn't hurt. I don't think it is a must.

If the money you make while working co-op helps you in paying off your debt, and you're not financially secure, I'd say go for it. Otherwise, it's a personal decision.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[SomptingGuy]

One distinct advantage of having been a co-op (or sponsored student here) is when you sit your first "real" interview you can talk about things other than your hobbies.

Q: Why interests you about XYZ?

A1: It became obvious during my industrial placement at ABC that XYZ was what I'd like to be doing ... (add loads of relevant information here).

A2: Err, I like fiddling with my bicycle and my Meccano. Plus my grandad was an engineer.

 

[zcp]

"ZCP: Doing this part time would certainly make for the most convenient solution, and I'd still benefit greatly from the experience. My concern is that, when applying for jobs, I'd still pale in comparison to a student who had worked full time."

You will pale in comparison if you believe you pale in comparison.

Why not start harping on your strong points.....advanced technical skill, ability to go long periods without sleep (j/k), etc.? Honestly, how many interviews have you been on? Are you getting destroyed in interviews for your lack of experience or is this a self imposed brain lock?

ZCP

http://www.phoenix-engineer.com