Important job applicant skills 5

[franzh]

I was recently on a job interview panel listening to job prospects. I was dismayed at the quality of candidates, (we were looking for a BSME minimum, with emphasis on engine combustion studies).

I was not especially displeased at their academic performance, however their presentation appearance (not professional looking, ie: jeans, shirts not tucked in, no ties, no jackets, several not having shaved recently), but overlooking that, their communication skills were abhorrent. I couldn’t get an answer without the “’know what I mean” or “see what I’m say’n” in almost every sentence. I frequently work with college graduates and understand their dress styles and lack of funds to buy professional clothing for job interviews. In what should be the most important step of a college graduates career, appearance is critical.

This job offered premium compensation (starting at $45,000 USD with benefits), moving allowances, spousal job relocation assistance, but we were looking for 3.5 GPA or better candidates. The client offered $10,000 more for either a MSME or a BSME with an MBA. Note that this is the starting offer and the client frequently worked up from this point. I saw one PhD. (28 years old) receive and accept an offer of $72,000, but he was a 4.0 GPA with relative study experience. He was very professional in both his appearance, presentation, academics, and a former US Army officer (undergraduate while in the US Army).

After the interviews were concluded, we compiled our worksheets and noticed a common thread: The candidates who presented better verbal and communication skills and first impressions but not as well in their skills areas scored higher than poorly prepared (visual and first impression candidates) who had better GPA’s and relative skills. Applicants from outside of the US seemed to have more concern on their presentation appearance than US students (I am in the US). Former military scored better than the general applicant.

When I was teaching full time, we conducted mock job interviews and critiqued our students in all areas. Towards the end of my program, I began to notice a definite change in personal concern for appearance and applicant apathy. At one point, I began to wonder if they just don’t care if they get the job.

Care to comment?
Franz

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[MadMango]

I recently held interviews with over 12 candidates before we found a good match for our company. One of the candidates was explaining one of the machine designs he had worked on. I was ready to end the interview when the candidate began to use sound effects.

[green]"But what... is it good for?"[/green]
Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.
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[TheTick]

"You can't go wrong wearing your dress blues."

This was a saying when I was in the navy. It applied specifically to which uniform to wear when one had any doubt. In a broader sense, it meant that you can't go wrong with your best manners and professional conduct.

Another saying I liked was "Don't play reindeer games unless you're one of the reindeer." I don't like interviewees who try to be "one of the gang". You are not one of the gang. At this rate, you won't be.

Not everyone has a suit. Everyone has access to a laundromat. For that matter, sport coats and ties don't cost that much. All shirts are capable of being tucked in.

I've never seen a woman show up for an interview with an unprofessional appearance.

"Customer satisfaction, while theoretically possible, is neither guaranteed nor statistically likely.--E.L. Kersten

http://www.EsoxRepublic.com

 

[BobPE]

madmango:

shame on you...the use of sound effects during an interview is definately thinking outside the box....LOL

I interview a lot, and the quality is there, you just have to ask different questions and toleerate different norms. Gen X and Gen Next are very much different than Baby Boomer and Tail end Boomers. I see companies strive to change to make work places acceptable of suffer the wrath of their young employees. It seems like the new generation will do pretty much what ever they want or they will go elsewhere. They do follow strong leaders and ignore poor ones. Dressing is just one of the "problem" areas I encountered. I got past it by plain talking with them that office casual is one thing and proper business dress is another and both will be tolerated and we will help them understand how to use dress in the work place.

The short of my rant is, get used to it and change your ways or you will not get the talent that you desire. The problem may seem to be with the young applicants, but what you described is the norm to them. I have changed my ways...and still success is fleeting...

Change is a wonderful thing...

BobPE

 

[ctopher]

my rambling ... I was in a college class a few years ago and career counselor came in to talk to us. He asked each of us which field are we going to work in when we graduate. One guy that was in his early twenties said, "I don't know". The counselor said he wants an answer and that he should know by now. The young man said, "All I want is that piece of paper so I can make the big bucks!". I now work with some Engineers that have the same mentality! I wonder ... how do people get past the interview process? Are we desparate for engineers?

 

[IRstuff]

Back to the original question.

Communications skills and quality are essential in a dynamic environment. It's one thing to work with Dr. Hawking for 20 yrs and be able to decipher his mumblings into intelligible words. It's another thing to have to decipher someone's chicken scratches or unintelligible ramblings to determine whether the information is there and is credible.

The bottom line is that a well-groomed presenter, handsome or not, will make you more receptive to the message and a well-presented message is key to transmitting information and persuasive messages.

As in the case of Casandra Peterson, packaging is a critical part of any enterprise.

TTFN

 

[crossframe]

IRstuff,

Excellent example on that last point!

 

[GeneratorGrrl]

Oftentimes, the people with the high GPA are riding on that. They feel that if the company wants their skill strengths, they'll hire them no matter what they look like or how they present themselves. To me, that speaks of vanity and a possible bad-egg.
I do agree that communications skills are vitally important. I'd be willing to go easy on an unprofessional appearance if the communications skills match the engineering skills.
At my last job interview, I wore black machine-washable slacks, machine-washable blouse, simple suit jacket, hair in a low french twist, and steel-toed boots, which looked a little odd against the formality of the ensemble. However, when the interviewer offered a tour of the facility, I reassured him that everything I was wearing was washable and I had no hesitation about touring a dusty, grimy industrial facility, and the safety bump cap fit perfectly over my hairstyle. That demonstrated thinking ahead and anticipating events. I got the job

"Eat well, exercise regularly, die anyways."

 

[franzh]

Back to my original post, several applicants slouched in the chair in a "spread eagle" or a "wounded duck" position, one chewed gum, one kept picking his nose, one smelled so bad we had to open the office, the women who applied were dressed nicely and made a good impression. Ultimately, the firm hired three of the 20 candidates, less than the 5 positions they had open. Their policy was to rotate the interviewing panel. I am a consulting professional, not an employee of the firm.
The three that were hired? The former US Army officer (PhD ME), one MSME, and one BSME/MBA. The Army gent was dressed impeccably in a well fitted suit, the other two (one a woman) were dressed appropriately. The others were summarily dismissed. One applicant actually left the interview to go to the washroom and never returned! The panel agreed that the appearance led to the impression that the winning applicants cared enough to present themselves appropriately, and were awarded justly.
There should be a required class (post graduate) on interviewing etiquette.
Franz

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[TheTick]

There should be a required class (post graduate) on interviewing etiquette.

I think I would prefer that there not be. Makes it that much easier to compete.

 

[BobPE]

franz:

what would you say were the age distributions of the applicants?

I hear a lot of people talk about this and it always facinates me. Me, I wore a suit and tie to each and every interview I ever had. I can't say that for young people I hire. But you know what, if I let that bother me, I will not have access to the talent I need.

I adapt and in saying that I know how hard it is for engineers to adapt...I have had resumes in colored pencil...now the obvious idiots rise to the surface rather quickly and exit the process...But that kid with chenos and a half tucked in shirt represents a large portion of the engineering labor pool coming out of college.

I also know hwat generatorgrrl is saying too. The stars of any group quickly get taken up and they are hard to find....

I guess I don't judge books by their cover...my ratty books have some of the best answers in the world in them....If I need a new shiney book to show off, I will borrow one from the library then return it when I am done with it....

BobPE

 

[cardoso115]

I've been through several interviews and at the beginning I went with a suit. Truth is that it didn't did much to me.
And despite being comfortable with it, I don't use it everyday, so it's normal if people could notice some nervous ticks, or lack of comfort.

The last job interviews I was in were for the same job, I went with jeans, shirt, and casual shoes. And I nailed it.
So the clothing isn't that important. Not the same with posture and communication skills... This is the most important thing in a job interview.

Picking your nose or smelling is the worst you can do!!! LOL

 

[franzh]

Looks like I opened Pandora box!
Clothing certainly was not the prime determining factor. Each of these applicants passed the preliminary phone interview by the HR department, their grades and previous employment records verified, and personal interviews scheduled. The applicants had approximatly 5 contacts from the client company prior to employment. (College recruiter, phone interview by HR, records verification, personal interview, second interview, on-site visit to meet with peers, final hiring process).
The ages ranged from 23 for a BSME, to 35 for a late BSME. The hired applicants were within a year of each other, about 27.
When it came to how the applicants prepared themselves to answer questions, the "naw" fell to "I'm sorry, I dont have that answer". The applicants would have to meet their clients on a regular basis, make presentations, and interact with international peers.
Just like buying computer parts. Buy a component in a white box from a discount warehouse or buy one in a shrink wrapped box with all the documentation, pay a little more, and you take your chances. I've had my share of discount parts and would rather buy premium.
The client would rather not train their employees in how to dress.
I too have seem the rough looking graduates with clockwork minds versus the polished Chino and Van Huesen type with mush between the ears, thats why we have interview panels, to see what we are "buying".
Franz

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Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[GeneratorGrrl]

"The way you look, it doesn't matter/ The way you talk, it doesn't matter/ The way you move, it doesn't matter/ It doesn't matter how you cut your hair - its what's inside that counts."
A nice song and a nice message, and that seems to be the mindset behind people showing up for interviews dressed like hobos :B But lord only knows what's going through the minds of people who show up unbathed and snot-nosed! Yikes!
I'm with TheTick, don't teach these people what they're doing wrong. It makes it that much easier for those of us who have the skills AND the marketting ^__^

"Eat well, exercise regularly, die anyways."

 

[BobPE]

open a pandora's box?????here??????on Eng-Tips....naw....Talking about this stuff is the highlight of my day and I suspect, many others days too......

BobPE

 

[HgTX]

In my fairly short tenure here there was a big thread or two on attire (started about women's interview garb I think), and a thread I started on the English forum about written communication skills--which isn't too far off from oral communication skills. People definitely have opinions about this.

I'm a pretty informal dresser but make some effort to get it together for formal situations like interviews. GeneratorGrrl--I love the idea of the steeltoes with the business attire. I've never had to be in business attire at a plant, so I don't know if I would have thought of that.

Last Friday's USA Today had an article in it about what Kids These Days are wearing to interviews. Sure made me feel a lot better about my informal tendencies, I'll tell ya. Flipflops and bedroom slippers at one extreme, club clothes with no knickers at the other! Then again this is the generation who premiered the notion that visible bra straps and thongs are unremarkable, and the generation coming up behind them thinks that midriffs of any size should be on open or tightly wrapped display.

It's a whole different idea of body image and presentation than I grew up with. Maybe it's good that they don't have any hangups. But maybe hangups are there for a reason. Either way, though, as someone else pointed out, when you go for an interview, you're looking to join someone else's club. ('Course, maybe they're filtering as much as the interviewer is, and they only want to join a club where they can wear their bunny slippers.)

The article didn't address their speaking skills.

Hg

 

[TheTick]

It's one thing to say that you don't care what your clothes say about you. Dressing poorly for an interview sends a different message: "I do not pay attention to the signals I am sending to others."

 

[IRstuff]

The thing about BobPE's ratty books is that they are HIS ratty books, and quite possibly, he was the one that made them ratty. That makes them well-worn and used, which is quite different than coming out of the book bindery looking like that.

The issue is whether you would go into a new book store and buy that book or one with newer covers, particularly given parity on everything else.

TTFN

 

[plasgears]

The younger generation is insensitive to appearance even in situations demanding higher standards. I have seen T shirts and Hawaiian shirts at weddings, several days growth of beard, etc.

My lawyer niece was escorted by one of these clowns, and I asked her about his background, "because you are something special." She seemed surprised. As a society, we seem to be accepting lower standards.

I think the time has come to inform the universities to coach students in the norm of dress required in business. Traditionally they have been informed about academic content required in the professions and business.

At the concert we as a family wear formal. It is surprising how attendees respond. I have seen regular upgrading of dress in one season. People are watching and they take cues from others.

 

[IRstuff]

There's still a HUGE difference between business casual and grunge.

I make no apologies for these decisions. I don't think it's too much to ask to dress up for one day and look the part, particularly since almost all interview prep instructions given out by schools tell you clearly to dress and groon nicely for an interview.

If nothing else, it tells me that he can't follow instructions or thinks he's too smart or too good to follow some simple rules. That kind of attitude and poor judgement will get you in all sorts of trouble, some minor and smoe more serious.

A relatively minor lapse in judgement from ONE engineer at Boeing cost the company a multi-billion dollar contract award.

TTFN