In rack Design and Storage Height Limitation. 2

[NJ1]

Ok. I went to job site today and this if what I found.

Hydraulic Name Plate Info. (Each Hydraulic Plate)

Number of Sprinklers 320
Density .6 gpm sq ft
Design Area of Coverage 2500 sq ft

System Demand
GPM Discharge 1563 GPM
Residual Pressure at base of riser 115 psi

Static pressure at riser is 140 psi
1500 gpm fire pump
6" Mains w/ 2" branch lines gridded systems
3/4" sprinkler uprights 286 degrees
10 risers

One entire sprinkler system covers the portion of rack storage without In-Rack sprinklers.
Deck is about 30'
Storage height is about 27'
Product stored is textiles (clothes in boxes)palletized

Adequate or not?

 

[stookeyfpe]

You've be provided design guidance on a very difficult project by several people, some whom I've met and some whom I havent't and yet you throw someone under a bus because one trainer isn't certified based on what you heard? Really? You should know I highly, highly respect (yes I said highly twice) LCREP, TravisMack, and SprinklerDesigner2.

My suggestion is to not ask for help again in this arena. Frankly I hoped this simple dialogue on sprinkler evaluation was not going to reduce itself to the qualifications of fellow fire protection professionals. But it did.

Good luck in any of your future endeavors.

 

[NJ1]

There goes again. As I have stated before here in many, many, many threads that I have experienced some serious encounters thru my 18 year of experience due to people that claims to be experts in fire protection but yet choke in a cup of water regularly.

LCREP
My assumption is that you do not live here in NJ. Companies that have sent their guys to Chubb wont even waist their money any more. The inspection, testing and maintenance is and has being a class for
people new in the field. No good for anyone that has more than 2-3 years.
It is great for officials since their level of knowledge varies too much from individual to individual.
Besides is a free country. Since my job with the state is to investigate negligent contractors my opinion stands.
Chubb has ties with government officials since is one of the only continuing education courses available. How do I have a NJ Building Plans Review Certification and cant even understand calculations properly. You get it.

Why dont you start a thread about chubb since you disrupted the storage conversation.

Be easy sport.

 

[LCREP]

NJ1

The only reason I suggested the training is based on your comments and question you need some help in understanding warehouse fire protection. You are not alone this is a very difficult subject with a lot ways it can go wrong. Look at the wrong table in NFPA 13, do not pick up on the type of plastic pallet being used, call plastic storage unstable when it is stable, pick the wrong commodity classification, guess on storage and ceiling height, will all result in a sprinkler protection system that will not do the job when called upon.

I see this everyday in my job I provide technical support to 70 loss prevention engineers. We look at warehouses everyday and many are not adequate for the storage configuration. We reject many sprinkler plans we review that are stamped and sealed by professional engineers because of the wrong sprinkler design.

My goal is to improve the knowledge of fire protection professionals, this is a tough business and we all need to help each other. I am forever grateful for the "old guys" that took me under their wing when I started in this business 33 years ago. I post here and other boards to pass the knowledge to the guys that do not have the experience I have so they can do a better job and learn. Perhaps when they become an "old guy" they will also pass the knowledge on.

OK I feel better now, I am off the soap box.






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Fire Sprinklers Save Firefighters’ Lives Too!

 

[NJ1]

I have no beef with any individuals here. I f anything I have refer many people to this forum. People like us that have spent many, many years in this industry looking to make a living and of course an honest buck. Unfortunately I have come across more thieves within the industry than I come across thugs in the streets. It is so unfortunate but it is real. My comments are only based on facts and internal pain rather than condescending or insulting. Believe me that if you ever meet me and my family you will be more out of the soap box.
Maybe you right. The chubb's design course is probably good but I just had to compare it to their ITM course which truly sucks. A good waist of money.
My whole freaking thing with this industry is that I cant understand why in the hell many, many companies, managers, inspectors, local officials can continue to mislead end users by interpretating the standards the wrong way by means of convenience, lack of knowledge or maybe ego.

Now that I am getting more involved on the design aspect I dont see any difference from the inspection and testing side of the business.
opinions are very common but accepting errors are like Hurricanes. It does not happens all year round but it comes it destroys everything in their path.

 

[SprinklerDesigner2]

Now that I am getting more involved on the design aspect I dont see any difference from the inspection and testing side of the business.

I started laying out sprinkler systems 36 years ago. It is all I have ever done. When I started 98% of everything was pipe schedule and we had three heads to contend with; upright, pendent and sidewall.

Twenty years ago Georgia was cowboy land where licensing wasn't required and all it took was fitter helper, two wrenches and a beat up pick up truck to become a fire sprinkler contractor.

I've seen the results first hand; a row of 1/2" standard response,standard coverage sprinklers 11'-6" off the wall and 1/2" pipe coming out of reducing tee to feet 4 sprinklers in a paint booth. Some of what was installed 25 years ago is simply appalling.

To address the problem a few years back the Georgia Fire Marshal made licensing a requirement and the penalty for working without a license is a third class felony.

Starting six or seven years ago Georgia requires all inspectors to obtain NICET Level III (not II like most states but III) in inspection and testing with each being issued a personal license, one that is attached to the company, to be able to perform inspections.

In Georgia as well each company location must have must have a certificate of competency holder and the only way you get that is to be Level III or IV layout technician.

Is this perfect? Of course it isn't but in my opinion it is the best route so far. For example as a C of C holder I am required to visit a job site a minimum of three times and document that I have by filing a form with the Fire Marshal's office. On larger jobs I might be there a dozen times or more but it is me and only me that can file the form.

On hydrostatic tests I am the only one that can sign the test papers. I have to be there and I have to personally witness the hydro and the flushing of underground if underground is involved.

When everything is done I have to sign a certificate of completion saying I inspected the installation throughout the process and everything was done in accordance with standards and approved plans.

I take what I do very seriously because maybe some are to stupid to recognize what's happening but it's obvious to me the fire marshal is preparing to jerk the licenses of people who don't take their job seriously. There have been some five figure fines handed out and it is preparing to get a whole lot worse.

I think it is going to become effective in June but a few months ago I saw a draft of regulations where if an engineer flubs up in specifications or drawing as the technician I am supposed to draw it up that way submitting a form on what I think is incorrect when I submit drawings. At this point the argument isn't between me and the engineer it's between the engineer and his state licensing board.

As a result of this getting out it is becoming ever much harder to find an engineer that will seal drawings if needed. Hard and much more expensive.

I also know the state is about ready to really start clamping down on C of C holders for not doing their job. I, more than anyone, applaud this move.

As for the inspectors who else? I would guess Georgia has somewhere around 750,000 sprinkler systems and as of February 23, 2012 Georgia had exactly 125 Level III inspectors living in the state. If everything was inspected per state regulation each inspector would have to do 6,000 inspections annually for an average of 24 inspections per day.

It isn't perfect but it is better than no inspections at all.

The NICET layout technicians gaining plan approval? It isn't perfect, and sometimes it gets downright scarey, but there really isn't any alternatives. I believe it's ingrained in how the industry developed through the insurance industry 40, 60, 80 years ago.

These same insurance companies, like Chubb, built this industry that has saved tens of thousands of lives and billions of dollars. Chubb designs its training around the type of guys who will do the work. I've found most to be your smarter than average fitter with a lot of field experience. Who else you going to design the training for, people with masters degrees in engineering? Should we take our experienced fitters and sent them to Harvard for four years? That is the best we got, it isn't going to get any better so why not everyone do their part to help make it better if you see faults?

I got into detail about the way Georgia approaches the problem because of all the states I have, or have held, licenses (about 20 total from Alaska to Vermont) in my opinion Georgia has it most right.

 

[NJ1]

SprinklerDesigner2

I also have a Georgia License for Inspections. I am working on getting my contractors license there as well. I have to tell you that compare to other states Georgia is the best. They even have a portion of the Fire Marshall's website where they put you on blast if you do wrong.

You live in a state that has our industry at the top of their game.
I was in Atlanta 2 years ago giving a One (1) week Nicet Test Training at Alliance Fire in Loganville and I love the Town and also the State. Besides Traffic it is all good. But I Live in the real world. "The Garden State New Jersey"
It is bad down here. Companies loaning their licenses for profit. Architects pin pointing sprinkler heads for preliminary drawings when in fact their not qualified to do so. It is crazy. Can you believe I was at a building in Jersey City, NJ and I noticed some inspections tags at the riser from a NYC company. I called the NJ Fire Marshall's Office and in fact that company was not licensed by the State of NJ. I called Jersey City and guess what they told me. "They are Jersey City Certified". LMAO. There is no such thing. The NJ State only issues State certifications and not City wide. This is why I carry so much anger and is not because of forums like this or individuals here but more with what is happening around us.
That is why our country should find a way to nationalized certain things. Period.
No beef again but more of an internal pain after so many years of hard work and still I have t sweat for my guys salary.