Incorporation by Reference. . . Standards Behind a Pay Wall 7

[SandCounter]

I recently came across a website that has collected and offers for free a large database of standards documents in *.pdf form. Money is usually charged for much of this material when obtained from the source, e.g. ASTM, etc. The website's justification is that the material is incorporated by reference in law and if ignorance of the law is truly no excuse, then people under that law should have free access to know what governs them.

Aside from the question of the ethics of posting for free someone else's work (notice I'm not posting the link), what are your views on engineering standards that are incorporated by law but require payment to view?

I used to count sand. Now I don't count at all.

 

[stevenal]

[URL unfurl="true"]https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3443056/117-Opinion.pdf
[/url]

Interesting reference to the Veeck case linked by IRStuff above. Seems to be a difference whether a code is simply referenced, or when a model code is adopted wholesale into the law.

 

[nonplussed]

I think there needs to be a clear distinction between the ethics and the legality of freely downloading the standards. There are many reasons why a freely available standard is ethically correct. Among other reasons, all engineers should place the health and safety of the community above the profits of private organisations. If you are in a position where you are considering not buying the standard because of financial reasons then yes, go ahead and download the standard for free, whether legally or not.

As is stated on the first page of many freely available standards: "In order to promote public education and public safety, equal justice for all, a better informed citizenry, the rule of law, world trade and world peace, this legal document is hereby made available on a noncommercial basis, as it is the right of all humans to know and speak the laws that govern them."

 

[stevenal]

So is the health and safety of the community enhanced when the standards organizations loose their funding?

 

[FoxRox]

nonplussed, there are many examples of laws contrary to what one may consider ethical. If you make a "clear distinction between ethics and legality", you're basically just leaving all decisions to your own discretion, regardless of the law. Do you think everyone should be allowed to handle things this way?

 

[SandCounter]

stevenal, I wonder if there are any good statistics showing a correlation between funding for standards organizations and health and safety of the community.

I used to count sand. Now I don't count at all.

 

[nonplussed]

So is the health and safety of the community enhanced when the standards organizations lose their funding?

As far as I am aware, most standards organisations are not funded by sole practitioners struggling to make income. If a company has multiple employees then it can likely afford the standards and should buy them. If a sole practitioner is considering 'going it alone' simply because they can't fork out the 5 grand every few years to buy some standards then, in that case, I don't think that the practitioner downloading the standards for free will force the closure of a standards organisation.

nonplussed, there are many examples of laws contrary to what one may consider ethical. If you make a "clear distinction between ethics and legality", you're basically just leaving all decisions to your own discretion, regardless of the law. Do you think everyone should be allowed to handle things this way?

Yes I do believe everyone should look at the ethics of a situation before blindly complying with the law, but that does not mean I go around raping and murdering. Without considering the ethics and simply following the law, even countries like the US would not exist as the declaration of independence was against the law. Was the declaration of independence ethical? Well that again is subjective.

Anyway, the OP was asking specifically to standards already incorporated by law. If a standard is incorporated in law then I don't see why that information should be restricted to only people in the community with money.

 

[zelgar]

If a copy is freely available for noncommercial basis and you use it for commercial purposes, you've already failed the ethical test (period) (end of story)

 

[SandCounter]

Unfortunately what is legal and what is ethical are not always as synonymous as we'd like. At least in democracy-leaning societies, the laws tend to reflect the majority ethos.

I used to count sand. Now I don't count at all.

 

[buzzp]

They should all be free - if they are required by some AHJ for compliance. Sure, hard copies should be purchased but downloadable for free. Recommended practices, etc. should be chargeable since it took time and effort, non-public, to draft and revise. The NEC should be free and should be funded by the states that adopt the NEC as a requirement. Not only will this help the consumer and small engineer but it will result in better compliance since the information is shared freely and easily available to the savvy consumer.