Introduction and Request for Guidance

[JohnJohnson]

Hello,

I am glad to find this forum. It appears to be a great resource.

I work in the Pacific Northwest as a Quality Engineer for a company involved in the Marine and Aerospace Industries. The company owners have recently decided to get into the Boiler/Pressure Vessel business, of which I know nothing! After failed attempts to talk them out of it, I now need to quickly get up to speed!

I have lead efforts at other companies to obtain ISO, AS and FAA Certifications, so the general process is familiar to me. We are interested in obtaining the following stamps: S, U, PP and R. Any general advice to help us get started would be greatly appreciated.

On a more personal note:

My wife and I have two grown boys. One is still in the Navy stationed in Everett, WA. The other lives in Tucson and owns an HVAC company. We have one granddaughter.

I enjoy riding motorcycles. I appreciate them all, but have an affinity for Harley Davidsons. My wife enjoys decorating and makes silk flower arrangements.

I have always owned dogs and just a couple of years ago got my first small dog (we had always owned large breeds. i.e., German Shepherds, Anatolian Shepherds, Bouviers, Mixed Breeds, etc.) I can't believe the personality packed into our 20 pound Havanese! He's a pistol!

I used to own/train horses (mostly quarterhorses) but we donated our last palomino mare several years ago. Getting old can account for smaller dogs and fewer horses I suppose. We live right on the water so I know I will eventually get into boating/fishing, but life seems to be a bit too demanding at this time for new hobbies.

John

 

[LittleInch]

See

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=343367

for some initial ideas and then find yourself an ASME VIII PE.

I dabble in pressure vessels and what I do know is that you need people who really understand it or you're going to get it wrong big time....

The AI role and the National Board thing are crucual for you.

Good luck.

My motto: Learn something new every day

Also: There's usually a good reason why everyone does it that way

 

[SnTMan]

JohnJohnson, First, welcome to the forum. You will learn a lot here, I trust.

Second, my sympathies, you got a hard row to hoe.

Third, aside from all the certs and so forth, you need to find people who know how to make 'em. I would say you will find the manufacturing very different from what you are used to, at least the aerospace end, depending on what type of vessels you are going after. The amount of scrap metal alone needed for round-up rings, bracing, temporary lugs, counterweights, etc, etc. is kind of mind boggling.

Spend as much time as you can on the site. Suggest this forum, ASME (mechanical) Code Issues, Welding, Bonding & Fastener engineering at a minimum. Use the search feature to learn what is available about a given topic, then come ask questions. A ton of help here.

Regards,

Mike

 

[JohnJohnson]

Thanks for the quick responses. I really appreciate it!

 

[jharris3]

Though I caution you to really read through the output of this program to help yourself become familiar with the pressure vessel Code and how the program satisfies most but sometimes not all of the Code requirements, you can find some good calculation software at Codeware.com. I am not a salesman of that software but I have used it and some of the other common programs and for the engineering side I like it the best.

The other best value for software in my mind is the Advanced Pressure Vessel software by Computer Engineering, Inc. This company also has good welding database software, that I like and can be purchased separate from the vessel software.

In the past I have gone through the ASME, and NBIC audits. Though you no-longer need to go through both of them to have the U and R stamp, it is a good exercise to do that when you are a new Code shop so that you understand the differences between the new construction Code and the in-service Code. From the business side, it is always a good idea to manufacture new vessels and also repair old ones.

Step 1: Find an engineer experienced with Pressure Vessels, and if needed secure a pressure vessel PE.
Step 2: Write your Quality Manual with the help of your PV engineer and Authorized Inspector.
Step 3: Schedule your audit (may need to do this first since the auditors are scheduled months or years in advance by everyone else)
Step 4: Make sure your shop has made the necessary changes in philosophy, equipment, and practices to be successful (even if you don't need it explicitly to pass your Audit)
Step 5: Get your money ready, this stuff costs a bundle!
Code Books: $2K-$5K (with a new edition you will be required to buy every 2 years)
Auditor: $7,000 or more! (and they come back every once in a while to re-certify your shop)
The scrap metal indicated above? + the time to get them right and know how to use them properly? (mostly for bigger vessels)
Software: $6,000 or more depending on how much you really need

This isn't that much for a business investment but it is like you are going to make a vessel for free every couple years. Especially if you plan on making small vessels which may have better logistics but don't create as much overall revenue.

 

[JohnJohnson]

Step 1 - Check
Step 2 - In progress, shouldn't be too hard; we are ISO andd AS certified, so we know the drill!
Step 3 - We have contacted them, but have not scheduled anything yet; thanks for the heads up.
Step 4 - Equipment and practices, no big problem. Philosophy and culture, that's a different story!
Step 5 - Fortunately, the company has DEEP pockets!

I have subscribed to the code electronically so multiple users can asccess it.

I'll check out the software you mentioned. Thanks for the tip.

Appreciate the help!

Sincerely,

J

 

[stanweld]

There are some excellent ASME Section VIII and Section IX short courses put on by Code West that will help you out.

 

[racookpe1978]

You need to look very seriously at the "attitude" of the company with respect to product lifetime design, procurement, reliability, weight, cost, and safety.

All matter very, very much in aerospace, right? In pressure vessel design and fabrication, they all matter - much more, if not much, much, more. But - key difference here! - in pressure vessel fabrication and installation and operation (the end of the PC design and procurement process that you will be beginning) they are ALL in a different order.

Weight in nearly meaningless. Not zero, but nearly of zero importance. Reliability (safety, redundancy, safety factors or erosion and corrosion allowances) are intended for life-of-vessel, but the assumption CANNOT be that a trained, qualified, and inspected experienced airframe and powerplant operator is going to install it and test it and maintain it on a rigorously enforced basis. Nope. You will get "somebody" - and you have no control over who or how they will do that job. (Unless you are nuke or aerospace/rocket PV fabricator.) Food cleanliness is going to critically checked during operations, but little else.

In aerospace, the "skins" (already at near-zero safety margins) are etched down where excess thickness is not needed, and the rivet holes are individually countersunk to insert flush-faced rivets by hand, right? Structural parts (landing gear braces for example) for machined down from single large castings and forgings to trim every last oz from unneeded regions to save weight while eliminating welds and joints, right? Welds are ground flush so no excess weight remains on board.

In PV fabrication and design, it may become cheaper and more reliable (less inventory problems, faster setup, fewer fabrication errors, quantity discounts in purchases, existing supplies already on-shelf, etc.) to make every steel member on the platform and legs the same size: rather than order a 3x3x3/8 angle, a 3x3x 5/16 and a 3x3x 1/4 and a 2-1/2x2-1/2x3/8 angles. (And forget about trimming any angle iron or grinding off welds to save weight!) Safety factors need to be considered as 30 years (or the contracted amount of time) with near-continuous service and ineffective inspections. The PV won't be pulled into the hanger for inspections. If there is to be doubt, excess corrosion allowance or erosion tolerances or plate thickness allowances go on the cautious side. Always. Safety factors don't go "towards" 1.0 load-to-allowable as a "good thing", but go the other way.

Design time needs to be minimized, not lengthened to optimize designs or to reduce material needed. "Good enough" is indeed, sometimes "good enough" as long as safety and the needed quality are ensured.

 

[SnTMan]

Another difference from aerospace you might find, again depends on class of work, is that in PV fabrication, quantities are small, each design tends to be different, such that not much is used in the way of jigs, fixtures, dedicated tooling etc. Pretty much hand built.

Regards,

Mike

 

[israelkk]

MIL-STD-1522A, MILITARY STANDARD: STANDARD GENERAL REQUIREMENTS FOR SAFE DESIGN AND OPERATION OF PRESSURIZED MISSILE AND SPACE SYSTEMS (28 MAY 1984).
It has additional three notices.

Version:
A 09-1992 5.77 KB MIL-STD-1522A_NOTICE-3
A 11-1986 46.72 KB MIL-STD-1522A_NOTICE-2
A 12-1984 147.46 KB MIL-STD-1522A_NOTICE-1
A 05-1984 538.48 KB MIL-STD-1522A

 

[JohnJohnson]

Thanks! I am much more familiar with MIL Standards!

We are doing well so far. We have a meeting at 7:30 this morning to assign the remainder of the team members, make the final determination on an AIA, and discuss using a consultnt to assist with writing welding procedures. While we have the talent on staff, they are probably not available in the short period of time we are allowing ourselves to accomplish this arduous task.

J