Is 3D REALLY better for mold design?

[smokehouse]

I've been at the mold business since '63 and the 2D drawings are SOP with an ISO added at times for clarification.. I use solid works to handle part files and do "splits". The mold design and the details are done in CADRA.
I'm reading more and more that 3D is the way to go for the complete design..I guess I'm not really sure why...
We're open minded at our shop so I'd appreciate your input on this anyone..
Thanks, Willp

 

[wflai]

well i personally felt that it would be much more better to have mold design in 3D.This is because in 3d, more complex product can be done.The possibility to missout any parts wihtin the mould overlaped each other is lower.Even though i haven't try it b4, but i certainly felt that it is more better than in 2D.

 

We design products, and typically hand the 3D part data to toolmakers. However, I've just spent a few days modeling the main tooling blocks for a particularly complex part in Pro/Engineer. Not the tool proper with ejector pins and springs and so on, but the main pieces of metal that generate the part with all the split surfaces, slides and lifters. It looks beautiful, and helped us catch a couple of problems. Since I helped design the part, it's easy for me to decide on the right compromise where it was needed. Having generated this tooling data in 3D, I now can't imagine how a toolmaker could do it any other way.

In case you're interested, and familiar with Pro/E - I used Pro/E as a surface modeler to built the parting line surfs around the part, and then gathering the resultant quilts into seperate part files to stitch together as solids, last thing. These solids are now ready to turn into proper tool parts with the inclusion of the correct shrinkage and all the additional tooling accessories and features. This last part doesn't really need to be done in a 3D package, but having gone this far, you might as well. It's great to be able to see how complex cooling holes, for instance, interfere with other tooling elements.

How do you do this at your shop? What software do you use? Is anybody out there using Pro/E and Pro/Manufacture to program your mills? Any other solid modeling products being used?

 

[smokehouse]

Haenlein,
We as a mold shop, get a part file from the customer..This comes into solidworks, the 3D program we use.
Then I expand it (shrinkage) then create the splits and the sections.
This is exported to CADRA, the 2D cad package we use.
The mold bases are on a library in CADRA, as well as any components like screws, EJ pins, core pins, etc...
We like this program because of ease of use and speed.
The top view is created first then the front and the end last, just like a board format.
If I want an ISO for clerification, then I "get" it from SW and bring it in to the 2D drawing..
I've not seen anyone here mention CADRA, so I really don't know how this stacks up to other 2D programs..

Is it your opinion that I should not use CADRA and use SW to do it all?
Others feel it is the way to go....
Maybe I'm stuck in a "warp" ... he he

 

[wroberts]

SW has a really nice 2D package, why buy/use two packages? You lose the fact that anytime you change the 3D the 2D doesn't automatically update. You can also change things in 2D laylouts that will translate automatically to 3D. 3D and linked 2D drawings are the way to go.

Will

 

[lexan]

We use Mechanical Desktop, (Autocad's 3d package.) I use the 3d part for developing views of parts that our customers send to us.I also use the 3d for prepairing the part surfaces for machining. I draw 99% of my mold designs in 2d. It's still in my eyes the most efficient way to design molds.
I haven't to this day , seen a good mold design that was drawn in 3d.
It's kind of funny, I always read or hear how easy it is to create views & define a part when it is drawn in 3d, yet when I get a part from a customer to build a mold for, 80% of the time we can't even get a fully dimensioned part drawing. Part drawings are a lot less complicated than molds.
I believe 3d mold design will soon be more efficient than 2d but not yet.

 

[agi]

In my over 20 years experience and mostly with CAD-CAM system, I think a 3D mold design is a very good tool to avoid your mold design mistakes. The problem is which software you have to use?
I think there are few consideration to keep in mind.
1) Which is the software that your costumer use(or most of your costumers use). So you need to have that specific software to avoid translations and to have the ability of direct update when the costumer make changes.
2) What specific work you do. In other words your parts are mostly regular shapes or freeform models. Is better to have a software which have both possibility - Hybrid modeler- but this softwares are usually expensive.
3) The best will be a software which cover part design,mold design and CNC programing so you have everything in the same database and every change is updated in all stages imediately.
I am using SDRC I-Deas from part design to 3D&2D mold design to CNC programing. I know that out there are better software than this but this is what I have so I am trying to take the advantages as much as possible.
After I have the part design in less then 2 Hours I can finish 3D mold design(every thing KO,W.L. etc) and in a 2-4 of days (depend on number of drawings) I can complete 2D mold design. In 2-5 days I will complete the CNC programs (including electrodes).
I am a beliver of 2D drawings. Whatever you do, 2D drawings are necessary for the toolroom and like documentation which follow the mold in each stage of manufacturing.
In past I have used other software mostly for mold makers like Powershape/Powermill, Catia , Top-Solid/Top-mold and recently THink3.
I don't know if this is helpfull,but if you have any other question I will like to answer.

 

[smokehouse]

Agi,
Thanks for your input. I am a plastic injection mold designer and the average mold size we can handle is about 15 X 20.
At the present, we get the 3D part file in and it comes into SolidWorks. From there we do the PL splits and sections.
The 2D drawings are done after that in CADRA.
By July 1st, I will be in business for myself as a feeelance designer and I will be using Solidworks for all of it.
However there is going to be a learning curve because I have not as yet designed the entire mold in solidworks.
My burning questions are:
Will SW suffice as a 2D program??
Will it be difficult to learn??
Will the library that is available from Progressive do the job in creating mold bases also screws, ej pins etc...??
(SW sells an add-on mold library for 2,000 bux so how can this from Progressive be any good??)

 

[agi]

WillP,
I am doing by myself freelance mold & part design.
The advice that I will give you is "work within Solidwork"
if this is the software that generate the most of the parts that you are doing mold design.
This will save you a lot of time in generating 3D mold base&mold design,BOM,2D mold design. Any further change in the part design will automaticly reflect on the mold design and in the CNC programs if you decide to use CAM package of the solidworks.
Everything is difficut at the begining but after 2-3 months of constant using you will be able to generate very good mold design with a min. of errors.
I think , do not use any other library other that the SW package has(D-M-E is included, cover everything and is standart in our industry).
Using a software for 2D , another software for 3D and another for CNC is like trying to build a car with GM engine,Ford trasmision and Ferrari body. Even if this are the best in the market they can not coexist together.

If you have more questions let me know.

 

[smokehouse]

Agi,
Thanks again, your input is invaluable. i was going to attempt to use a free library from DME or Progressive instead of buying one from SW at this time ....just to save the 1500 bux. If it doesn't work out then I'll have to spend the money.
Do you stay busy in your freelance business?

 

[JDone]

smokehouse,

Look into MolWorks and SplitWorks. These are SoliWorks add ons that will greatly decrease mold design time. We are using them now and find them a great addition to SolidWorks. MoldWorks contains multiple libraries you can use. These product, in conjunction with SoldWorks help automate the mold design process.

 

[Soupcat]

We use I-DEAS for cavity/core splitting and take these into the I-DEAS drafting package which in my view is the best in the market, I can quickly section and dimension any view with relatively little effort. I pull in 2D dxf's of the relative plates from DME, DMS, HASCO or whatever supplier the toolmaker requires me to. Toolmakers will always want 2D prints in my opinion, I honestly can't see how else they can operate?! Do you have a PC at the end of every toolmaker bench for lifting sizes of a 3D model? 2D Layouts showing hole pitches, depths, ground forms etc are the easiest way.

 

[Soupcat]

We (Moulddesigner Ireland) use I-DEAS for cavity/core splitting and take these into the I-DEAS drafting package which in my view is the best in the market, I can quickly section and dimension any view with relatively little effort. I pull in 2D dxf's of the relative plates from DME, DMS, HASCO or whatever supplier the toolmaker requires me to. Toolmakers will always want 2D prints in my opinion, I honestly can't see how else they can operate?! Do you have a PC at the end of every toolmaker bench for lifting sizes of a 3D model? 2D Layouts showing hole pitches, depths, ground forms etc are the easiest way. We can turnaround mould designs very cheaply and quickly using this system.

Kieran Fegan
Director

http://www.moulddesigner.com

kieran@moulddesigner.com

 

[JDone]

Soupcat,
We are using 3D to design and create molds. Specifically where 3D information can be fed into a program for CNC or EDM. All necessary data for mold design; plates, pins, cap screws, etc., comes in 3D libraries provided with the software. A 2D print of the mold assembly and BOM can be automaticvally generated. 2D prints can be made from this and used when necessary.

 

[Soupcat]

JDone,
I used to be a big advocator of complete 3D design, but found that if I added up all the time spent 3D designing and then tidying up drawings and dimensioning, I'd have been quicker 3D splitting, pulling in DXF's and dimensioning. This is the reason why I now do it this way. What package do you use? Does your package automatically dimension AND to your satisfaction...i.e. presents the drawing well?

Kieran Fegan

http://www.moulddesigner.com

kieran@mouldesigner.com

 

[JDone]

We use SolidWorks with MoldWorks and SplitWorks. It will auto-dimension. As you know, when dumping 3D data into a program, no dimensions are required. We use less and less dimensioning and more and more 3D data. When we use dimensions we do it the same way you do with a 2D package because it's cleaner than auto-dimensioning. The dimensioning time is relatively the same in most CAD packages. The benefits come when we can utilize the 3D data w/o creating a 2D drawing, when we can create a minimal 2D drawing, when we make design changes, and in avoiding interference mistakes and drafting errors. The 3D models contain all the data you need. Teaching people how to access/use that data w/o a drawing is the trick. Also, a comittment to proper hardware and resources is necessary, at the top. 3D design will start out slower because of the learning curve, but will quickly surpass 2D. It has been my experience that once someone sees the benefits and time savings of 3D (with 2D when necessary) they never go back to 2D alone. I wouldn't go back at gun point. I also couldn't because I would miss all my deadlines. I should add one thing, we are a product design company. We make molds to support our products internally. Mold design is not our bread and butter.

 

[Soupcat]

We provide a rapid splitting service for a quite few aluminium toolmaking companies and they utilise the 3D info as you have described.... but they do still like to have a rough GA just as a record for future modification purpose. For simple geometry where everything is CNC'ed or EDM'ed ... no bother, but what happens when you have complex mould where there's a load of inserting, undercuts created using slides, lifters, autounscrewing etc. I do believe that 3D design will advance to an even greater level than we have seen but there will always be the need for a detailed drawing.
3D Mould Design has been out for quite a while and mould design accounts for a significant portion of our revenue yet 95% of our customers, some of whom are leading toolmaking companies with full CNC capacity.... still insist on absolutely everything being tied down on a 2D print. That said, our average complete mould design time is 3 days, dependant upon complexity of course.

Kieran Fegan

http://www.moulddesigner.com

kieran@moulddesigner.com