Is it worth it to get PHD in Mechanical Engineering 3

[am586]

I hope this is the correct forum to post this question in, but I am at an interesting point in time in my career and have reached a crossroad. I will be graduating in May with a BSME degree and I have two great options;

Option 1 involves going to work in a feild engineering position at a large company who makes power plant equiptment. I figure I would work there for a few years in the field till I get tired and then move into their home office, and hopefully get into a design and development department. I have always been a hands on learner have had a bit of internship experience and up until now I have been itching to get out into the real world. If I work for this company once I move into their home office, I will hopefully have enough money from the field engineering position (Where they will be paying for most all my room, board, and food) to have a great down payment on a house. They will offer tuition reimbursement and pay for my Master's Degree.

Option 2. I just started doing some research with a professor here at school and he and I get along great. I am real interested in the work he does, and he should be having a research project coming in in another month or so he will know for sure, that would allow me to be hired on for 4more years of schooling or so where I could get a PhD out of the deal. Up until now I figured a Masters would be as high as I would ever go educational wise, and I figure if I don't get a PhD now I never will. The pay will be considerably less, yet the project will give me an excellent background in metallurgy, failure theory, heat transfer, and manufacturing. All things I really am interested in learning quite a bit more of. I have no intention of spending the rest of my life however in academics. I am finally at the point where I can enjoy most of school but really want to be in the real world eventually. Any other project I wouldn't even give it any thought I, I would not consider a PhD but I really like the guy and it is interesting stuff.

So I was wondering what people think. Career wise, I want to be on the development side of research and development one day. I have wanted to go into the power industry for quite some time, love working around big heavy machinery, and think that the field position would really provide me a great basis as a design and development engineer. I don't want to be in academia, nor do I want to be the type of guy who spends his whole day writing research papers. For me the trill of engineering is when something you work on comes to life for the first time and works! 20 or so years down the road I would love to be the type of guy who people can come to when they have the tough challenge or issue to solve, and can get expert advise from, and or help develop something better than ever before. Does a PhD have any value for what I want to be? It seems like getting a PhD would really be a once in a life time opportunity, those who I know in industry who have PhD's seem to say the career satisfaction from having one comes later on in life down the road, but at the same time, if I am going to do it the time for me do it is now? So any advise from anyone who has been there and done it would be a great help. Also out of curiosity how hard is it for a guy with a PhD straight out of college, yet little industry experience shy of a few internships to get a job? I heard a lot of companies will feel they don't want to pay higher PhD wages, yet at the same time see you as not having the proper experience.

Thank you very much. If this is not the proper place where should I post it?

 

[MikeHalloran]

I never had a choice like that. Okay, when I was done with school, I was _done_ with school. But if you can stand four more years of living like a student, I'm guessing it will pay off... mostly in contacts.

Given a PhD, you can be the go-to guy who, instead of saying "Go get a bigger wrench", can say "Build a factory to make bigger wrenches", and be taken seriously.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[jpankask]

Just judging from what you have said, I would not get the PhD. Instead I would choose option 1 and get the company you work for to pay for your master's degree.

Taking out what you said, my advice would still be the same. I think you will have a very hard time finding an engineering job, outside of academia, with a PhD. That level of theoretical knowledge is useful in very few mechanical engineering positions. Also, as you said you have heard, a company will not want to pay you $10,000-$15,000 more for the same job a BS engineer will do for much less.

A lot of companies also will not be interested in a MS for the same reasons. However, if you take this job with the company you are interested in and get them to pay for your MS, you will have the degree, experience to go with the degree and you will have cash in your bank because you are getting paid while going to school. I absolutely encourage getting a MS while working, if you can do it. It is hard, especially if you are starting a family, but it will make you a better engineer. Being able to apply what you are learning while you are learning it makes the knowledge a lot more real and it sticks with you better.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[TheTick]

Get the PhD just so your boss has to call you "Doctor"!

If you want to do research or advanced analytical work or teach at a university level, get your PhD and don't waste time doing so. If you want to design toys and machines or babysit power plants, get a job and don't look back.

 

[dvd]

If you are bright and ambitious and promise to do something with all of the knowledge you get from your doctoral studies then you should go ahead. If you end up getting a docorate and then don't push on beyond that point, you will most likely end up with less opportunities available to you. I got a doctorate in mechanical engineering and went to work in industry, an industry that really didn't require doctoral knowledge. Several years later I found myself out of work and not all that attractive to hiring personnel due to over-qualification. Be careful about what you specialize in and don't work with a professor just because you get along well, that can change. Research what to research.

 

[GregLocock]

I know several engineers with PhDs, aged 40-50. Those who did their PhD immediately after their first degree(s) are still in academia. Those who got a real job and then went back for a PhD later work in industry.

So it all depends on what you want.


Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[sms]

A PhD is the ticket to academia, but it is also the ticket to high tech cutting edge research. Doesn't sound to me like you are much interested in either...

I went your option 1. I did not consider myself bright enough to do PhD work, so when I graduated with my BSME I went right into field service engineering. 24 years down the road I am the type of guy who people can come to when they have a tough challenge or issue to solve, and can get expert advise from, and I have spent most of my career in the turbomachinery business, but in many ways I wish I had a PhD.

I am finishing a masters this semester, and may eventually go get the PhD (maybe when I retire), but in many ways I wish I had done it back then. In the US, a PhD is not often found in industry, execept a the very top of the research department. In other parts of the world PhD are often found in industry. Many of the German Turbomachinery guys I deal with are PhD's. In a global economy I think a PhD is worth pursuing.

"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" Oddball, "Kelly's Heros" 1970

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.

 

[am586]

Thanks for the responses I really am enjoying reading them. Greg and SMS, I was wondering I read through all the requirements and can't seem to see anywhere where I am in violation of the forum policy. Am I?

That being said, I really appreciate the comments that I am receiving here. I can't say I know too many Mechanical Engineers besides the ones here at school, those I know are of course PhD's and obviously a bit biased in their opinion. However most all of them have gone down a career path that doesn't really appeal to me, so it is really nice to be able to ask this question of a variety of individuals who have gone about careers in industry.

SMS, interesting thing about most engineers from other countries being PhD's. My friend's father from Russia is one, and it actually kind of hurt him when he immigrated to the USA, as he became over yet under qualified at the same time.

One of the major things that makes me so attractive to this professor is my US citizenship. It seems so few students who are getting their PhD's these days in the USA are indeed citizens which this project will require. The project is to study and model with FEA the cutting of Ti Jet turbine blades in order to improve their manufacturability. GE as well as the US Govt will be the primary funders of the project. It is going to get into a lot of the stuff that we never studied in depth as undergraduates, yet I really have always wanted to be more competent in. Such as the mechanical properties/mechanics of materials, material failure analysis, and metallic heat transfer and conduction. All of which seem to be rather valuable in industry, yet I feel have been rather lacking in my education so far.

I am kind of torn as on the one hand, I am eager to get out there and go, yet I don't want to miss out on what could be an incredible opportunity. If ever I am going to get a PhD knowing myself now is the only time it will be. I am convinced about the value of a Masters degree, but don't know about a PhD. My father is an EE, he has one, and his former boss didn't. When new management came in, dad's friend got the boot and they moved my father into the position. Simply because my father had the degree and his boss a close friend of his didn't, not too fair but it seems as thou there are definite caps for those in industry who don't have a Masters and how hight they can go. The other option is to get my masters degree on the project (get paid a little too) and then leave in 2yrs but that seems rather silly, how hard is it to do a Masters at night? Are there ever places where you will be at a huge disadvantage with out a PhD?

I do know a few PhD's that have been very accomplished in industry and all of them feel the degree has paid off quite well for them, but the payoff came later in life. Career wise I know I want to eventually move up into a leadership and development position on the R&D side of the buisness, I would also like to be very competent on the analytical side, yet still well rounded and respected with quite a bit of authority (none of this of course do I expect to happen overnight). Where do the guys with the PhD's wind up going in industry, particularly in Mechanical Engineering, where it makes a difference?

Also the one other thing I am also trying to weigh out in all this is how hard is the transition from field work to the office? I know I really don't want to spend my whole life living out of a suitcase though for the time being the thought of travel is exciting. Can a guy get stuck in the field?

Thanks for the comments

 

[MikeHalloran]

The intent of the 'no students' policy is so we don't end up doing someone's homework. Since you didn't ask us to do that, and you did ask a question that's interesting and relevant to many of our members, you are not, for purposes of this discussion, a student.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[sms]

No you're fine, Greg and I are long time participants here and the management likes us to put that FAQ message in our signature lines.

No way will GE or other turbomachinery manufacturers hire a PhD and put him in a field service job. If you want to do field service, do it now with a BSME.


"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" Oddball, "Kelly's Heros" 1970

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.

 

[monkeydog]

am586,
From what you have written, it sounds like IF you go for the PhD, and work in industry, you are most likely to work for a big company in the metals lab or the failure analysis lab. There are some companies in the US that specialize in failure analysis, and a PhD is what they would be looking for. That type of work can be interesting, I have spend a few days in our failure analysis lab with parts in a box, a long face, asking the FA Lab what happened.
Like others have said, it depends on what you are looking for.

 

[JStephen]

Long ago when I was in school, it looked like the main opportunities for a PhD in ME were either in military industries or in teaching, and I didn't want to head down either path, so I got out. In your case, I'd suggest to take a good look at your job opportunities if you do get a PhD.

It can be a frustrating business. You mentioned you were interested in the research being done, and that's great. But at the time, I wasn't too interested in any on-going research. Now that I've been out of college, I can think of all kinds of topics that could be made into research projects, but no longer have the opportunity.

 

[Noway2]

Another factor to consider. Would getting the PhD mean putting in any sort of residencey period? By residency period I mean a time when you are effectively employed by the University and can't work for a paycheck? If so, this can be very difficult to accomplish once you "get out there", buy a house, car, start a family, etc.

Given the option to do it all over again, I would have stayed in school and pressed on for it.

On the other hand, I have known plenty of PhD's that couldn't engineer their way out of a paper bag and I have heard a lot of other people make similar comments; enough so that as a hiring manager, I would be very cautious about hiring a PhD for practical applications work. I think a lot of problem is that their way of thinking became TOO academic and theoretical.

 

[cvg]

I would have to agree with noway2. I am a project manager with a BS. I have worked closely with several PhD's on my team or on their teams and all needed guidance going from theoretical / studies into the design and implementation. It has also been difficult getting projects done within budget when they want to continue and research or to analyze things beyond what is really necessary.

 

[Gymmeh]

My wife is a PhD in Environmental Engineering....I might be bias from my daily life...

If you like academia and plan on being a professor- go for it.

If you want to work in industry- plan on being a slave, being paid less then a person with a BS, having a hard time finding a good job, having less "useful" skills then a high school student...after 4-6 yrs in a lab, you will know everything about your topic, which applies to 1E-100 % of anything useful, and forgotten anything which really "makes money."...

I recommend working.

...i might be bias (as noted)

 

[zdas04]

I was looking up some salary statistics last week and found that a person with a BS will make (on average) 15% more than a person seeking a first job with an MS and 30% more than people seeking a first non-academic job with a PhD. Of course, no one actually makes an "average salary" and individual results will vary.

If you can find statistics on people who started working with a BS and then got an MS and/or a PhD then it looks like the statistics are reversed (a PhD with relevant experience should be worth 20-30% more than a BSME with the same experience).

Industry sees new-BSME guys as a liability in the near term (i.e., they don't really know very much, and most of what they do know is so very wrong), but a liability that can be turned into an asset within an acceptably short period. The same industries tend to see an MSME as a liability that may or may not be able to be turned into an asset and a PhD as a liability, period (PdD's tend to know too much about too little to be useful in industry, that level of specialization really is best for insects).

These broad-brush generalities are certainly not universally true, but enough Engineering Managers feel this way that I sure wouldn't take the risk of staying in school to get an MS or PhD (I did get my MSME 13 years after graduation, and plan to get my PhD 35 years after graduation, seems like about the right spread).

David

 

[Gymmeh]

Okie, so my last post was a little harsh... so I will make this one happier.

As you posted, a BS has its place and limitations, I know alot of people that are going back to school for masters in ME or PhD and others after working in the field for a couple years, I intend to go for my masters in a year.

My big point with my last post is that going directly into graduate studies has two major disadvantages.

1) When you graduate you are still "entry level" and will be treated as such

2) You will get assigned a professor, who probably has had little to no real industry work, and will put you on a project which is abstract and not useful in the real world. These are good because they lead advances in useful things, but if not done right they end up as a pointless. So when you go to an interview, and you are trying to sell your value to a company, its will be more difficult. (they assume you have lost your "generic" engineering skill, and you are selling your research ability.) Which short term does not bring money to a company, so it will scare them off.

Big pro to this is your still in study mode.

Now if you work for a couple years and go back;

1) you are not longer "entry level"
2) you know what to study to increase your value
2.1) you know if you like what your doing
3) your company may even pay for it.

cons are..
1) out of study mode
2) my have a significant other
3) my not do it, although if you really want it you will find a way.

Best Regards

 

[cvg]

zdas
I had to smile at the reference to insects, however my experience has not been quite that bad. We are paying a young PhD engineer(less than 10 years experience) only about 10% less than I make after 23 years. However, he is quite specialized, being able to do hydraulic modeling and writing reports only. Very little practical experience with plans, specifications, estimates, interaction with clients etc. We have another, older - more experienced PhD who is quite an asset and gets paid considerably more than me (probably 75% more). It all works quite well as long as he continues to realize where his considerable expertise stops and others starts.

 

[zdas04]

cvg,
I tried to be specific to ME. I know that in Environmental Engineering, it is really hard to get a job without an MS and a PhD can be an asset.

In something as specialized as hydraulics (I'm assuming you meant basin-wide hydraulics and hydrodynamics, not devices), I can see where a large firm could afford a high-dollar specialist and spread their costs over a bunch of projects. I see a lot of firms that simply farm that kind of work out to a one-or-two man shop that just does the really specialist stuff.

There really is not a single answer to this question, and for every example "proving" a point of view there is an example disproving it. At the end of the day each of us has to decide our own priorities and life goals and go for them in a manner that makes sense to us and our families.

David

 

[ischgl99]

am586, I know who you are and cannot picture you going the Phd/research route, you have a machine shop in your garage and know how to use it! I think you really want to do the field engineering path, but have some concerns about not getting the advanced degree right away. The masters might help you, if you want to get into Engineering Management, then that would be very valuable to have, but could close as many doors as it opens early in your career. I hire field engineers and do not consider any candidates with a masters unless they have demonstrated they have the field or hands on experience to do the job. I may not be typical, but you need to consider most poeple in industry do not have advanced degrees and will not place much value on it.

I considered getting a masters after college but went the field engineering route and have not looked back one bit. It has not hurt my career at all and most likely helped due to the varied experience I have gained over the years. The experience I gained doing the field engineering is much more valuable then anything I could have gotten at a university. Not having the masters might keep me out of some companies, but that does not matter to me at all, I enjoy the maintenance area much more then design even though I planned on going the design route out of college, and you might feel the same after some time in the field.

My recommendation to you would be to get the experience with the field engineering position and then look at your options for the future and decide what you really want to do.