Is our profession being ruined? 24

[MIStructE_IRE]

Ruined by red tape, paperwork and seemingly everything BUT engineering!

For years we issued planning reports to the local authority for all projects. This was standard in my country for decades to gain approval prior to commencement.

Now, the planning process involves the usual report, a basement audit report, a construction management plan, a construction waste management plan, a flood risk assessment and a road safety audit! And of course no one wants to pay more for it!!

Then...we eventually get the project moving, have stage 1, 2a, 2b, 3 and 4 reports/letters/presentations, not to mention the endless meetings and emails.

The job ultimately gets to site and we have client advisors breathing down our necks to see if the aggregate used in the concrete mix complies with standards X, Y and Z - or that the mill cert for the rebar used expires halfway through the job and how will we ever deal with that!!!!

Christ Almighty!! Isambard Brunell, Thomas Telford and Ove Arup would be spinning in their graves to see the administrative clerks we have become!

I suffered a 3 hour meeting last week with a baby faced architectural technician telling me how structural elements are to be inspected..

Honestly, this stuff is pushing me closer and closer to the door!

I really hope things are different on your side of the Atlantic..

 

[nonplussed]

The exact same is happening here in Australia. To a hammer everything is a nail, and to a bureaucrat the solution to every problem is more paperwork. In the past we could spend 90% of our brainpower focusing on the design and drawing. Now, if we're lucky, 20% of our brainpower is on the design and 80% is on paperwork. And this is somehow meant to make the design better.

 

[r13]

I have two different prospects on out profession, and I am struggling in between.

1) Our profession is ruined, if more codes, standards, and regulations are set in place that limit the creativity, generally expected from the engineers.

2) Our profession's future has no limit, as the fast evolution of computing capability, new technology development, and new materials; thus, we are better equipped, that eventually will lead to better engineering products than ever before.

 

[struct_eeyore]

Too many "professionals" w/o proper experience stamping plans - they do not spend the proper amount of time designing and charge substantially less than - the result however, is that their structures tend to be under-designed - sometimes dangerously. Unfortunately, these people continue to exist, and every one of their failures reflects on us as a whole - so big bro steps in every time and levies heavier and heavier regulations. Sigh. Reading through this thread, this seems to be the consensus - I just have to vent myself. Moreover, the clueless clients LOVE these guys, because they spit out plans quickly and cheaply - and we look bad for eating up precious time and money to do due diligence. If I had $1000 bucks for every time I heard some douche proclaim at a meeting "well, we consulted with 'our guy', and he thinks that this can be done this much faster, this much cheaper, using this other system that he's done many times" - (when clearly what is being proposed by said douche is not even remotely plausible) - then I would probably just work a couple hours a week solely so I can go to meetings to hear this shit and collect my money. What really needs to happen, is that the education should become substantially more rigorous ( no need for a masters, just make the undergrad difficulty on par with, say, chemical engineering or some other notoriously hard major), disallow architects to sign structural drawings for anything other than single family homes, and make the PE test substantially harder (I think perhaps its time to separate civil and structural disciplines, and disallow cross discipline stamping). In other words, set the barrier to entry based on skill and motivation rather than on finances. Now, I'd like to think this would have a positive effect on improving the state of the profession; however, there is still a nagging feeling that human nature will still reveal itself in apathy/laziness and we will continue to have aforementioned problems.

 

[XR250]

I stick mainly with residential and light commercial for the reasons noted above. I have less than 1 hour attention span/tolerance for a meeting. I like to design, not shuffle papers.

 

[Rabbit12]

Structee, I agree that the PE should be tougher. When I took it that test was a joke. I had assumed the bar to getting licensed would be higher.

I also think we will see the SE exam being required by more and more jurisdictions. That test is hard so over time I think you'll see some progression towards it being tougher to get a license.

 

[dauwerda]

I know Oklahoma is now requiring the SE for structures in SDC D or at certain wind speeds. Georgia requires it for any structures taller than 3 stories I think. As Rabbit12 said, I think we will keep seeing more and more jurisdictions require the SE (in the US anyway).

 

[JLNJ]

Star to structee for most colorful post yet on eng-tips.

 

[3DDave]

To ensure the core wasn't lost - the previous satire was of a good man driven mad by an unreasonable request, not one willing to stamp regardless. I worry that depending on the frame of mind of the reader it's possible to read it the other way. So much for my writing career.

 

[KootK]

I'd be oodles happier with the "profession" if it didn't always seem to require:

- A gaggle of ridiculously placed deadlines the week before Christmas and;
- A gaggle of ridiculously placed deadlines the week after Christmas.

I feel as though the taking of a decision to have no hard deadlines between December 15th and January 15th is all that it would take to spread a bunch of extra joy into the structural engiverse. Like summer in France but on a much smaller and more economically viable scale. Sure, there would be work the weeks before and after Christmas. Just no deadlines.

Consider playing chess with me on the Social Chess app at iTunes. Same handle. Fear not, I suck.

 

[TheDW]

- A gaggle of ridiculously placed deadlines the week before Christmas and;
- A gaggle of ridiculously placed deadlines the week after Christmas.

It gets particularly hairy when the local code version is changing at the end of the year, like it is around here...everybody wants their permit applications in by the end of the year so they aren't effected. I'm just glad I'm not the one starting to have to tell them no, but I hear the conversations going on across the office and they don't sound fun!

 

[phamENG]

TheDaywalker, does SC not do a grace period? Up here in VA we got a full year - we were allowed to start using the new code September 2018, but weren't required to use it until September 2019. Allowed for plenty of planning and changeover. Or did you get a grace period a bunch of clients failed to plan ahead? (Sorry. Stupid question. That never happens...)

 

[TheDW]

I'm not sure on the rules of being allowed to use the newer code before it is enforced, but SC still enforces 2015 until 1/1/2020, so that's what we've been using up until the last few weeks.

Their 'planning' never includes allowing a few weeks for our backlog...

 

[IRstuff]

I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.

In aerospace, it's often the case that the government doesn't want to work over Christmas, so they rush to get RFP's to come out a week or so before Christmas, with the due date after New Year's. And who says the government ain't efficient?

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

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[hawkaz]

Structee,
As others have stated, SE requirements are becoming more prevalent across the country.
Regarding test pass rates, per the NCEES website, the current pass rates for each of the four sections is under 50% for both first time and repeat test takers. It is 40% or under for 7 of the 8 categories.
The lawyers in my family are stunned by this- The bar exam has a 75% pass rate.

Regarding what is taught in college, I agree. It seems like the undergrad classes I took back in the 80s are now considered masters level classes.

 

[KutEng]

- A gaggle of ridiculously placed deadlines the week before Christmas and;
- A gaggle of ridiculously placed deadlines the week after Christmas.

I'm sure if Jesus was an Engineer, and not a carpenter, he would've been born sometime in August

 

[bones206]

As others have stated, SE requirements are becoming more prevalent across the country.
Regarding test pass rates, per the NCEES website, the current pass rates for each of the four sections is under 50% for both first time and repeat test takers. It is 40% or under for 7 of the 8 categories.

In my opinion, the SE exam is unduly burdensome and not a true measure of an engineer's competence. It's more of a reflection of how much time someone can sacrifice from their life to study for 6-12 months ahead of time, and how good their test taking skills are. Just because I might not be able to resolve forces on a free body diagram in 23 seconds, doesn't mean I couldn't carefully and accurately solve that same problem in 5 minutes in the real world. To me, SE certification is kind of a joke. I know plenty of SE's that don't know what they are doing half the time and plenty of non-SE's that are very competent.

My wife is a physician and went through a rigorous, structured training regimen. She did several months long rotations in various specializations under the direct supervision of attending physicians in several different hospitals. Then did a 3 year residency program, during which her progress was measured and tracked and evaluated constantly. There were specific measurable goals that had to be met, and those were enforced without mercy. These residency programs themselves are accredited, so they generally strive not to let incompetent doctors slip through the cracks. Those that couldn't hack it were regularly dismissed. Plus, the programs are truly engaged in training and educating the residents, because they have a stake in their success (program accreditation, reputation, talent retention, etc.)

Contrast that to engineering. We say everyone works 4 years under the direct supervision of a PE before taking the PE exam but in reality, it's not the fastidious apprenticeship that we make it out to be. Most young engineers are just simply used for their low rate, and left to sink or swim and pretty much figure structural engineering out for themselves as they go along. Though to be fair, resident physicians are also used and abused (100+ hour work weeks) for their low rates. But with engineering, there's a huge disparity in the actual training aspect. Some lucky ones actually get mentored and trained and developed with some semblance of structure, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

I submit that if we really want to improve the profession and get rid of the soft underbelly, we should overhaul the existing training and licensing system to resemble that employed by the medical field. Something with more structure, more consistency across the board, and promotes the weeding out of the incompetent. A certain percentage of engineers can pass an arcane 16 hour exam if they are clever test takers and put in the hours of studying. Congrats, now you have an SE after your name. But don't we want the SE designation to have more actual substance behind it? If I see an MD after my doctor's name, I can expect a certain level of training, experience and qualification. If I see an SE after an engineer's name, it could similarly signify a certain level of training, experience and qualification. Or... it could just mean that someone hid in their bedroom for 8 months with their nose stuck in a bunch of code books.

As far as paperwork is concerned, I'm not sure how to avoid that. Even after all that time, training and investment, my wife still spend more of her time doing clerical work than actually tending to patients. It's just a symptom of the times and hopefully we will evolve past it.

 

[phamENG]

Well stated, bones. As one who was part of the rule and left to sink or swim (thanks to a confluence of hard work, fortuitous decisions, and a healthy dose of dumb luck, I'm swimming pretty well), I can certainly attest to what you say.

The big question, then, is how does it get implemented? That kind of training regime is very expensive. If you look at a resident physician's pay vs. a physician who is fully certified and licensed, etc., it's not hard to guess how they pay for it. A resident physician was making a median $50,000 in the States last time I checked (a few months ago). After residency, it easily triples (or more). Compare that to engineering salaries - a PE/SE with 5-10 years of experience can, depending on market, expect between $75k and $90k, right? So if we use a similar payment ratio to account for the cost of running a regulated and accredited "engineering residency" program graduate engineers would have to be willing to accept $20k to $30k while going through the program. And let's not forget, this is AFTER earning a graduate degree. This doesn't seem tenable, so another means of paying for it would be required. Public funding? Not likely unless we suddenly have a spike in structural collapses and society decides they need to contribute to our training. I don't see that happening anytime soon (at least I hope not).

Perhaps it should be a training outline produced by the licensing boards (or a central group like ASCE and adopted by the boards) that guides practicing engineers in the proper training of an EIT. It would cover the topics currently covered by the PE/SE exams though with more practical applications. Then, in addition to the written/scantron test, require an oral board that tests the engineer's actual understanding of the materials.

 

[dauwerda]

So if we use a similar payment ratio to account for the cost of running a regulated and accredited "engineering residency" program graduate engineers would have to be willing to accept $20k to $30k while going through the program

I think you are going the wrong way with this. If a similar program was somehow brought to fruition, the "resident" engineer would start at a similar salary to what they do now (40-60k?). This salary would then triple as you noted, once complete. The reason for this, is there would be less licensed engineers, as more that are able to skate by now would be eliminated in the "residency". Less engineers but more competent overall = higher demand = better pay.

 

[Celt83]

PhamENG:
Why would they have to expect $20-$30k what should really happen is the design fees should rise to actually get us paid inline with the liability we take on. We have all effectively undercut each other to the point that we aren't viewed with any regard beyond the rubber stamp from the permitting office and are effectively being paid pennies on the overall project budget.

Open Source Structural Applications:

https://github.com/buddyd16/Structural-Engineering

 

[DrZoidberWoop]

The best structural engineers I've ever met are not SE certified, but I know/know-of plenty of SE "actors" who leverage their credentials in a corporate environment. Plenty of them at "that one company who's name is spelled similar to the main ingredient in bread."